Heat Source Pumps.

jof said:

Right, so here goes:
Cost to replace old gas boiler with new one in daughter's house =3k

Estimate to fit heat pump & parafanalia in our 3 bed electric only semi, more than 20k + upgrade to water pipes needed as pressure wasn't high enough & the inverter box would be sat in the middle of the back garden, as it couldn't be put anywhere convenient.

In the end I went for air conditioning heat pump at 7k and another 10k for solar & batteries.
It works better than the old storage heater & is significantly cheaper to run.
Ok I'm still heating water overnight on economy 7 and charging 8kwh of battery during the winter, but this month's electric is £80 all in.

If I went for the heat pumps they are trying to push, I wouldn't have been able to do solar too & I would have lost a pantry worth of space to the warm water cylinder.

Click to expand...

That's interesting. Its the cost of running I am concerned about, all insulation is free. Also.concerned about servicing costs and availability of qualified tradespeople to do the servicing.

Just so you know, the 20k quote was from 2019. The government subsidy would have allowed us to claw back around 5k over a few years. It's also high because we had no existing wet heating, being all electric with storage heaters.

The basic air - air (air conditioner) system with 2 downstairs & one upstairs unit was quoted as 5.5k - which was 10k cheaper than the air-water heat pump they keep pushing & cheaper that getting a gas fired system installed once you factored in all radiators & ~£800 for transco to connect gas from street to house (a total rip off given all the neighbours have this & it's about 18ft of gas pipe)

Chippy_Tea said:

As has been discussed several times houses in cold countries are designed to keep heat in and cold out our houses (especially old ones) are not good at doing that even with extra insulation.

Click to expand...

And as has been discussed several times, such fears are overblown. In the real world 85% of UK houses don't need additional insulation, the remaining 15% generally just need extra loft insulation which is something that is a good idea regardless of how you're heating the house.

https://es.catapult.org.uk/report/electrification-of-heat-home-surveys-and-install-report/

Therefore 15% do and these will no doubt be the ones with no room for a water tank and with radiators and pipesthat are not up to the job, the price is also going to put many off.

Thanks for the link. ​

£14,800 avarage install

12% of all UK homes cannot have a system.

​

Additional measures installed​

• 93% of homes that had a heat pumps installed required at the replacement of at least one radiator.
• 81% of homes required a new thermal store, such as a hot water tank, either because the property had a combi boiler before and no thermal store, or because the original cylinder did not have a suitably sized coil for a heat pump.
• A small number of homes – 33 flats – had a heat battery installed instead of a hot water tank, due to lack of space.
• 15% of properties required energy efficiency upgrades – in the majority of cases this was loft insulation, and a few properties received cavity wall insulation or door replacements.
• A small number of properties – 27 homes – required measures to keep heat pumps within noise limits.
• Participants did not raise concerns around aesthetics.

Costs of heat pump systems installed​

• Average total cost per property was about £14,800 including the heat pump unit, additional measures and installation. However the benefits of bulk buying and economies of scale should reduce costs.

Barriers to heat pump installation​

• Only 12% of properties surveyed were considered unfeasible based on technical constraints.

Chippy_Tea said:

Thanks for the link. ​

£14,800 avarage install

12% of all UK homes cannot have a system.

​

Additional measures installed​

• 93% of homes that had a heat pumps installed required at the replacement of at least one radiator.
• 81% of homes required a new thermal store, such as a hot water tank, either because the property had a combi boiler before and no thermal store, or because the original cylinder did not have a suitably sized coil for a heat pump.
• A small number of homes – 33 flats – had a heat battery installed instead of a hot water tank, due to lack of space.
• 15% of properties required energy efficiency upgrades – in the majority of cases this was loft insulation, and a few properties received cavity wall insulation or door replacements.
• A small number of properties – 27 homes – required measures to keep heat pumps within noise limits.
• Participants did not raise concerns around aesthetics.

Costs of heat pump systems installed​

• Average total cost per property was about £14,800 including the heat pump unit, additional measures and installation. However the benefits of bulk buying and economies of scale should reduce costs.

Barriers to heat pump installation​

• Only 12% of properties surveyed were considered unfeasible based on technical constraints.

Click to expand...

Is there not a £7500 grant that will halve that cost?

As someone said before, it is the running cost which concerns me. We have had a quote to install a heat pump and with the grant could probably do it for about £3500. We rebuilt our house 4 years ago and so it has plenty of insulation and as a result our oil consumption has dropped by about 40%. I would like to 'do the right thing' environmentally but worry that the running costs would be greater than our current oil boiler. Does anyone have information about running costs?

Brewshed said:

As someone said before, it is the running cost which concerns me. We have had a quote to install a heat pump and with the grant could probably do it for about £3500. We rebuilt our house 4 years ago and so it has plenty of insulation and as a result our oil consumption has dropped by about 40%. I would like to 'do the right thing' environmentally but worry that the running costs would be greater than our current oil boiler. Does anyone have information about running costs?

Click to expand...

This is what I need to know. Real info not government data.

In terms of costs, I would think that most would get it free.
If you are on any benefit then it's free. If anyone in the house as certain health conditions then it's free - that covers single things like asthma so it's worth looking at. A company I had been in touch with said it would save me 75% a year.

Brew_DD2 said:

Is there not a £7500 grant that will halve that cost?

Click to expand...

I don't know but that is the average in a house that is going to need new pipes and radiators etc its going to be silly money.

It's a bit late in the year now but if you want to gauge if your pipes / radiators are good enough to switch to a heat pump try turning the boiler temperature (not your wall thermostat) down to the usual heat pump temperatures (40C but can go up to 50C) and see how your rooms fayre.
Be aware heat pump design is usually set for continuous running so make sure you don't turn your boiler off on a timer as you usually do.
Should give you a rough idea of how suitable your current set up is for a 'lift and shift' to a HP.

The heat pump designs for houses are usually continuous heat, then use temperature drop back of a few degrees while the house is unoccupied then lift the temperature again when in use.
So theoretically just put the heat into the house that is lost through waste and keep the house ticking over.

I suspect some of the people that are disappointed with HPs haven't moved mindset / had it explained to them.

BTW I don't have one but I've been looking.
My boiler is only a few years old so I'm not ripping it out but come the time I'll be looking at HP vs. boiler for sure.

ECO4 is the name of the latest scheme

The ECO4 scheme is a £4 billion initiative by the UK government aimed at enhancing energy efficiency and heating measures for low-income and fuel-poor homes across Great Britain. Here are the key details about the ECO4 scheme:

1. Duration and Funding:
   • The ECO4 scheme runs from April 2022 until March 2026.
   • It is worth a substantial £4 billion in total.
2. Eligibility and Target Groups:
   • The scheme prioritizes supporting households on the lowest incomes.
   • Households receiving means-tested benefits are eligible.
   • The reformed ECO4 Flex targets households with low incomes but not necessarily receiving benefits. It is voluntary for local authorities, the Scottish and Welsh governments, and obligated suppliers.
   • The eligible pool comprises at least 3.5 million homes.
3. Energy Efficiency Bands:
   • Only homes falling within energy efficiency bands D to G are eligible for ECO4.
   • For social housing and private rented accommodation, ECO4 focuses on the least efficient homes in bands E to G.
4. Specific Targets:
   • Solid Wall Insulation: A minimum target of 90,000 solid wall measures over the 4-year scheme.
   • Heating System Upgrades:
     • A cap of 5,000 replacements per year for broken boilers and electric storage heating (ESH) with efficient heating systems.
     • Repairs are also capped at 5,000 homes per year, subject to certain conditions.
5. Innovation and Uplifts:
   • Uplifts for Innovation: ECO4 rewards improvements and differentiates between relative and substantial enhancements compared to standard counterparts available in the market.
   • Off-Gas Rural Areas: A 35% uplift in off-gas rural areas in Scotland and Wales incentivizes delivery in harder-to-reach regions.
6. Strategic Goals:
   • ECO4 aligns with the government’s wider aims, including:
     • Eradicating fuel poverty.
     • Achieving net zero emissions.
     • Supporting the heat and buildings strategy.

For individuals with specific health issues, the ECO4 scheme takes into account their unique circumstances. Here are some considerations:

1. Health Conditions and Vulnerability:
   • If you have health conditions that make it challenging to maintain a comfortable temperature at home, you may be eligible for additional support.
   • The scheme aims to address fuel poverty and improve living conditions, especially for vulnerable individuals.
2. Priority Measures:
   • The ECO4 scheme prioritizes certain measures for health-related reasons:
     • Heating System Upgrades: Ensuring efficient heating systems to maintain warmth.
     • Insulation: Proper insulation helps regulate indoor temperatures.
     • Health and Well-being: The scheme recognizes that warmth is crucial for overall health and well-being.
3. Health Assessments:
   • If you have specific health needs, consider seeking advice from your healthcare provider.
   • Some health conditions may require tailored solutions, such as specialized heating systems or insulation modifications.
4. Local Authority and Support Networks:
   • Local authorities and community support networks can provide guidance on available grants and assistance.
   • They may offer additional services for vulnerable individuals, including those with health issues.

Chippy_Tea said:

Thanks for the link. ​

£14,800 avarage install
12% of all UK homes cannot have a system.

Click to expand...

I have installed two now. Neither suffered any of these issues. One replaced oil, one solid fuel.

Tbh there is a saving, but it isn't a mahoosive saving. But run low and slow, in a masonary home, you get to be warm. Not hot and cold. Lovely.

Funnily enough neither of mine were £14k. And they were both on 4/5 bed exposed houses.

Hope that helps.

We qualify for eco4, we are unsure because of all the conflicting info about the pumps and the companys who fit them

Rodcx500z said:

We qualify for eco4, we are unsure because of all the conflicting info about the pumps and the companys who fit them

Click to expand...

This is exactly why I posted.

And rightly so. The double glazing salesman have moved onto solar panels and heat pumps.

I looked into this 2 years aga my house is about 25 years old, insulted loft and wall cavity 3 bed detached.

Ran the numbers my house was build with a combi from day one so airing cupboard was needed hence no plumbing for it.

The radiators are all to small to make it work I did as said above reduced boiler temp to 40 and left on was warm during the day not great at night and bloody expensive.

My brother is an Air Con Specialist he ran the numbers and just did not make sense for me.

if you look at certain Scottish councils that fitted them to their housing stock the bills were higher than a gas boiler by a fair bit.

The issue is the temperature differential in parts of Scotland -10 is not unknown with this delta air source struggles, granted that is not all the time but not uncommon to never reach double figures day or night for months.

Ground source is far more effective but costs are silly now and not every property is suitable.

I am disappointed UKG have turned away from Hydrogen it was potentially a great gateway fuel as most gas boilers could utilise it with very small modification, they ran a trail with 5 then 10% in gas supplies, no issues were found it worked and no one noticed. Think about the effect if we could replace 5% or 10% of the gas use that would be a genuine step in the right direction.

Double whammy we struggle to store energy yet in my part of the world where wind turbines have to shut off as no demand from the grid (we then have to compensate the turbine owners for lost income) why do we not use this to create green hydrogen, we know how to store it after all, or feed it straight into the gas networks

old dog new tricks said:

Double whammy we struggle to store energy yet in my part of the world where wind turbines have to shut off as no demand from the grid (we then have to compensate the turbine owners for lost income) why do we not use this to create green hydrogen, we know how to store it after all, or feed it straight into the gas networks

Click to expand...

I mentioned this in the EV car thread its crazy we see turbines here shut down most of the time because they dont need the electric at that time.

old dog new tricks said:

I looked into this 2 years aga my house is about 25 years old, insulted loft and wall cavity 3 bed detached.

Ran the numbers my house was build with a combi from day one so airing cupboard was needed hence no plumbing for it.

The radiators are all to small to make it work I did as said above reduced boiler temp to 40 and left on was warm during the day not great at night and bloody expensive.

Click to expand...

You don't need to reduce the boiler temperature, high-temperature heat pumps produce water at the same temperature as a boiler so your current radiators will do just fine. But it's only recently that they've become mainstream, so a lot of installers aren't really aware of them (and/or would rather get paid to replace a load of rads).

old dog new tricks said:

The issue is the temperature differential in parts of Scotland -10 is not unknown with this delta air source struggles, granted that is not all the time but not uncommon to never reach double figures day or night for months.

Click to expand...

And you think -10 is not unknown in Norway, where half of all houses have heat pumps? Or Canada? There are specialist cold-weather heatpumps, but they do cost more. You're not an ideal case though in terms of who would be an early-adopter in the UK.

old dog new tricks said:

I am disappointed UKG have turned away from Hydrogen it was potentially a great gateway fuel as most gas boilers could utilise it with very small modification, they ran a trail with 5 then 10% in gas supplies, no issues were found it worked and no one noticed. Think about the effect if we could replace 5% or 10% of the gas use that would be a genuine step in the right direction.

Click to expand...

It's a token, that does work, but it doesn't really get you anywhere long-term. Hydrogen is just too expensive and is too valuable for use in chemical plants etc where there's no alternative, so any supplies of hydrogen will end up at places like Immingham and Grangemouth.

old dog new tricks said:

Double whammy we struggle to store energy yet in my part of the world where wind turbines have to shut off as no demand from the grid (we then have to compensate the turbine owners for lost income) why do we not use this to create green hydrogen, we know how to store it after all, or feed it straight into the gas networks

Click to expand...

Storage is coming - there's over 20GW of battery storage already with planning permission, and in the long-term there will be shared pools of hydrogen that will mostly be used by industry but will get used for electricity generation when the wind doesn't blow for periods of days/weeks. But the way that it will work is that the chemical plants will lead the way.