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Piperbrew

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Not sure if I have posted in the correct section so apologies if in the wrong place.

I have a few questions which I think might actually lead onto other areas but here goes.

I have been making my beer with standard malt extract kits and tinkering with them with powdered malt extract etc. My question is am I able to buy generic liquid malts cheaper than ready made kits or could I buy powered malts and then 'cook' them as such along with hops....as opposed to buying the malt grains which looks to much of a palaver to me ...no offence intended to the expert who do )).

Reason I ask is I am thinking of converting a stainless beer keg which I cut the lid off and thought about making it into a boiler ( propane). If I did this are there any plan as to what else I would need to do to it as guessing a temperature probe and tap and possibly a site tube, oh and I am an ex plumber so a doddle for me to do.

I am also looking to start secondary fermenting my beer , would I see improvements if I do?

Thanks

Pete
 
Hi Piperbrew,

I haven't done much liquid malt brewing, I went direct from kits to all grain, but I know you can sometimes but liquid malt on special offers from Holland & Barrett.
 
Not sure if I have posted in the correct section so apologies if in the wrong place.

I have a few questions which I think might actually lead onto other areas but here goes.

I have been making my beer with standard malt extract kits and tinkering with them with powdered malt extract etc. My question is am I able to buy generic liquid malts cheaper than ready made kits or could I buy powered malts and then 'cook' them as such along with hops....as opposed to buying the malt grains which looks to much of a palaver to me ...no offence intended to the expert who do )).

Reason I ask is I am thinking of converting a stainless beer keg which I cut the lid off and thought about making it into a boiler ( propane). If I did this are there any plan as to what else I would need to do to it as guessing a temperature probe and tap and possibly a site tube, oh and I am an ex plumber so a doddle for me to do.

I am also looking to start secondary fermenting my beer , would I see improvements if I do?

Thanks

Pete
What you have described is 'extract brewing'. This is where you use unhopped liquid or dried malt extract and carry out a boil with hops. You don't necessarily need to boil all of the wort with the hops, just enough to extract the hop bitterness and flavour. The rest of the malt can then go into the FV just like you would for a kit. You can also add things like a grain steep or a minimash to enhance the brew just like you would for a kit.
There are some savings to be made over buying a kit but not a huge amount, but the advantage is you have more flexibility to brew what you want. And many AG recipes can be directly converted to extract beers. And if you want to brew small batches you can do this since you are not driven to 20+ litres like you are with a kit.
There are some extract brewers on here including myself and if you are interested we can point you at a few recipes.
Finally since you make up your own recipes and brew volumes and don't need to boil all the wort you don't require a large boiler. I can make 15 litre brews with two SS pots sized at only 3.5 and 5 litres.
Hope this helps.

PS.
I assume by secondary fermentation you mean racking off to another FV towards or at the end of the primary. There are advantages in doing this in that it removes the beer from the yeasty trub, and that helps clearing; that's what I do. However many homebrewers don't rack off because they believe it is unnecessary, especially since the beer will clear anyway given time, but many don't do it because they fear it will increase the risk of an infection due to the transfer. So in the end its down to personal choice.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the replies gents.

Ok its making a bit more sense now and I have also just looked at the sticky on extract brewing. Terrym , I am sure I will be asking you some questions soon and although you mention small batches I don't think I would ever bother and stick to 23 litres. I know you say you don't need to boil all the wort but would it be better to boil as much as you can? , hence why I am looking into making a boiler.

So if this is one stage up from kits, whats the next stage.....how much more equipment is needed / skill and finally does each stage tend to yield better results?

Many thanks

Pete
 
Not sure if I have posted in the correct section so apologies if in the wrong place.

I have a few questions which I think might actually lead onto other areas but here goes.

I have been making my beer with standard malt extract kits and tinkering with them with powdered malt extract etc. My question is am I able to buy generic liquid malts cheaper than ready made kits or could I buy powered malts and then 'cook' them as such along with hops....as opposed to buying the malt grains which looks to much of a palaver to me ...no offence intended to the expert who do )).

Reason I ask is I am thinking of converting a stainless beer keg which I cut the lid off and thought about making it into a boiler ( propane). If I did this are there any plan as to what else I would need to do to it as guessing a temperature probe and tap and possibly a site tube, oh and I am an ex plumber so a doddle for me to do.

I am also looking to start secondary fermenting my beer , would I see improvements if I do?

Thanks

Pete
It is very easy, buy 25li of LME from MaltMiller. Weigh out how much you need for your brew and add the required ammount of water. Add a few liters of water to allow for evaporation. Start your hop design
 
Thanks for the replies gents.

Ok its making a bit more sense now and I have also just looked at the sticky on extract brewing. Terrym , I am sure I will be asking you some questions soon and although you mention small batches I don't think I would ever bother and stick to 23 litres. I know you say you don't need to boil all the wort but would it be better to boil as much as you can? , hence why I am looking into making a boiler.

So if this is one stage up from kits, whats the next stage.....how much more equipment is needed / skill and finally does each stage tend to yield better results?

Many thanks

Pete
There really is no need to boil all of the wort in my view. You can can extract adequate hop bitterness and flavour by only doing a partial boil. And the added advantage of doing a partial is that you don't have to cool all of the wort.
So if you wanted to make up a 23 litre brew you could get away with a stock pot of around 15 litres working capacity. Others may be able to advise on this, cos that's out of my extract brewing volume range.
And since I only use smallish stock pots from the kitchen I have no extra kit compared to kit brewing.
If you do go down the extract brewing route I suggest you start with DME rather than LME. I have in the past only used LME but some brews using cheap LME had the dreaded twang. No-one, as far as I am aware, gets twang with DME. I will probably go to DME when my stock of LME is used up.
Finally the next step up from just a kit and kilo or making up a premium kit as it comes is, for me, pimping/boosting/tweaking a kit, usually a one can, with a grain steep, or a minimash, or a hop tea or a dry hop or all or any of them. That's what I do as do lots of others on this Forum it seems.
 
There really is no need to boil all of the wort in my view. You can can extract adequate hop bitterness and flavour by only doing a partial boil. And the added advantage of doing a partial is that you don't have to cool all of the wort.
So if you wanted to make up a 23 litre brew you could get away with a stock pot of around 15 litres working capacity. Others may be able to advise on this, cos that's out of my extract brewing volume range.
And since I only use smallish stock pots from the kitchen I have no extra kit compared to kit brewing.
If you do go down the extract brewing route I suggest you start with DME rather than LME. I have in the past only used LME but some brews using cheap LME had the dreaded twang. No-one, as far as I am aware, gets twang with DME. I will probably go to DME when my stock of LME is used up.
Finally the next step up from just a kit and kilo or making up a premium kit as it comes is, for me, pimping/boosting/tweaking a kit, usually a one can, with a grain steep, or a minimash, or a hop tea or a dry hop or all or any of them. That's what I do as do lots of others on this Forum it seems.

Whats a partial boil please? and twang? ...
 
So if this is one stage up from kits, whats the next stage.....how much more equipment is needed / skill and finally does each stage tend to yield better results?

I think the next stage after extract + speciality grains would be Brew in a Bag (BIAB), I was going to go from kits to extract like yourself but then I found the easy all grain thread here and found out you can do it very simply.

The basics is that you get a mesh laundry bag from a supermarket put the grains in there and mash (soak) in water at 65 - 70c for an hour. Remove the grains and boil the wort with hops at which point you're as per extract. This method let me do 8L batches, after 4 of them I bought a Grainfather as I was hooked on all grain.

Here's a link to the 3 BIAB equipment kits from geterbrewed.

For me the extra work of mashing (which isn't very hard) was a fair trade off compared to the price difference. Extract is expensive, my last 3 batches of beer have been 15L and have cost £4.69 (brown porter), £7.30 (saison) and £7.80 (bock), granted that excludes the yeast which can vary from <£1 to the £7 liquid I'm using (and reusing which is why I exclude it's cost). Also mashing lets me play with so many different malts which interests me more than hops.

Hope that helps and I didn't misunderstand your question.
 
If I'm not correct, please correct me!:

Boiling extract for a few minutes is advised for sanitary purposes, and probably helps dissolving.
Boiling hops for an hour is needed to get the bitter out of it, special malts need the full hour too to get them into the wort. Aroma hop less than 15 minutes, or even added post-boil.

Twang is a weird taste that some people experience in extract kit brews.

Partial boil is where people for a for instance 5 gallon batch, only start to boil 4 gallons or less (high gravity brewing), and at the end top up again to 5 gallons. The same grain amount is needed as for 5 gallons, but the hop might need longer boiling to reach expectations.
 
I think the next stage after extract + speciality grains would be Brew in a Bag (BIAB), I was going to go from kits to extract like yourself but then I found the easy all grain thread here and found out you can do it very simply.

The basics is that you get a mesh laundry bag from a supermarket put the grains in there and mash (soak) in water at 65 - 70c for an hour. Remove the grains and boil the wort with hops at which point you're as per extract. This method let me do 8L batches, after 4 of them I bought a Grainfather as I was hooked on all grain.

Here's a link to the 3 BIAB equipment kits from geterbrewed.

For me the extra work of mashing (which isn't very hard) was a fair trade off compared to the price difference. Extract is expensive, my last 3 batches of beer have been 15L and have cost �£4.69 (brown porter), �£7.30 (saison) and �£7.80 (bock), granted that excludes the yeast which can vary from <�£1 to the �£7 liquid I'm using (and reusing which is why I exclude it's cost). Also mashing lets me play with so many different malts which interests me more than hops.

Hope that helps and I didn't misunderstand your question.

Thanks for the reply, yes exactly what I was asking )). I suppose what I need to do is make the extraction starter kit I just purchased and see how I get on, I will also look at the info. you pointed me too also. I suppose the main reason I initially asked about brewing in the beer keg I have is because if I am using extra ingredients I am a bit unsure of cooking a large pot on my cooker and it would be handy it I could do everything outside on a gas ring and keg.
 
I just looked at the all grain thread you kindly linked me to Zephyr and it looked straightforward. Though I saw people using boilers and cooling coils when I looked on YouTube which kinda blew my mind!.....what would be the reason for the cooling coils, is it time critical to cool things down? if I could maybe go the all grain route it would be handy as I might be able to get brewing malts etc from someone I know via a bit of good old bartering.

EDIT
Just looked at the starter kits, is that really all you need to do the mash....? ....a boiler, muslin bag and a wort cooler? (excluding other kit I have already of course)

If it is I already have a steel beg keg that I cut a round hole in the lid, all I need to do is buy a �£20 gas ring , put a tap into the keg and make a wort cooler with several metres of micro bore copper tube I have.
Looks like I might be doing all grain quicker than I thought! ....

Is the wort cooler a vital piece of kit or can the wort just cool naturally?

EDIT 2 ..I just went onto the Geterbrewed site and used there all grain recipe customizer. What a difference in price over LME/DME ....I think it will be a no-brainer, I will be going all grain pretty soon.

Cheers

Pete
 
If I'm not correct, please correct me!:

Boiling extract for a few minutes is advised for sanitary purposes, and probably helps dissolving.
Boiling hops for an hour is needed to get the bitter out of it, special malts need the full hour too to get them into the wort. Aroma hop less than 15 minutes, or even added post-boil.

Twang is a weird taste that some people experience in extract kit brews.

Partial boil is where people for a for instance 5 gallon batch, only start to boil 4 gallons or less (high gravity brewing), and at the end top up again to 5 gallons. The same grain amount is needed as for 5 gallon
but the hop might need longer boiling to reach expectations.
Answers to your questions.
There is no need to boil extract for 'sanitary reasons' if it is fresh out of an unopened can or sachet. But if you are taking some from a bulk store e.g 25kg drum that might be advisable. If you are making kits up from hopped LME is it recommended you use boiling water to soften and then help dissolve the LME. In extract brewing you need to boil the hops with malt to extract the bitterness and flavour just like in AG brewing. However it is not necessary to use all of the malt as I said above, unlike in AG where a full boil is necessary.
And twang is as you say a weird taste that is found in some kits and extract brews. There are several suggested reasons, and it is discussed on here in new threads about every six months (and nothing new ever comes of it :whistle:)
 
Just as an add on from the comments I have made above. I have just been looking at beer keg conversions for making beer in. There seems to be some people who use two or three kegs or other containers, one to mash in, on for sparging and one for boiling in.....have I got this correct?

Now my question is , would it be possible to do everything in one beer keg, just checking before I go ahead and make any changes to the one I have. What I was thinking is having the keg, mounted on a gas heater, the keg has an open top and a tap in the bottom to draw liquid off and either have a bag, or better still a stainless mess container in it which can be immersed in order the grains mash. The container (or even a bag) is then rasised and held above the liquid surface and the liquid held in the hot grains flows back into the keg by gravity. Am I also right in saying those grains should be sparged to glean all the sugars from them? , well I could set up a slow trickle of water over them to do this? Once all liquids have dripped back into the keg the grains in the containers or bag can be lifted clear and the gas heater turned back on in order to heat the liquor up. It can then be cooled with a separate copper cooling coil.

OR ...just heat the water and soak the grains in one of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Igloo-Du...303408&hash=item3adf0f0432:g:bdYAAOSwU8hY6MHN

or this size as I am guessing it would be adequate for soaking the grain?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rubberma...016302&hash=item41c561e1a0:g:~3oAAOSwFYxZzETD

Then sparge and run all the liquid into the keg and heat up.

Am I correct with what I am saying ??

Many thanks in advance.

Pete
 
The reason some of use three vessels is that it makes it easier.

Here's a photograph of my three-stage system.

The highest vessel is the Water Heater (used to heat the water for mashing and sparging).

The middle vessel is the Mash Tun (used for mashing the grain and then sparging it to rinse out the sugars in the wort).

The bottom vessel is the Boiler (used to boil the wort to drive off a bunch of things and get the bitterness from the hops).

The vessel in the second photograph is the Fermenting Vessel (with blow-off system) sat in the fridge ready to rock & roll.

I've never considered just using the one vessel for an AG brew but I will sanitise the Mash Tun and use it as a Bottling Bucket for the next brew!

Three tiers.jpg


Bubble Tube.jpg
 
The reason some of use three vessels is that it makes it easier.

Here's a photograph of my three-stage system.

The highest vessel is the Water Heater (used to heat the water for mashing and sparging).

The middle vessel is the Mash Tun (used for mashing the grain and then sparging it to rinse out the sugars in the wort).

The bottom vessel is the Boiler (used to boil the wort to drive off a bunch of things and get the bitterness from the hops).

The vessel in the second photograph is the Fermenting Vessel (with blow-off system) sat in the fridge ready to rock & roll.

I've never considered just using the one vessel for an AG brew but I will sanitise the Mash Tun and use it as a Bottling Bucket for the next brew!


Like it, looks a lot easier when set out like that. How many litres of beer do you normally get from that set up? I think I will do something similar but without the top heater as I have no heating bucket like you so will most likely have to heat the water and transfer to the mash tub first. From what I am reading using the same container for everything might be a bit of a pain ie keeping the mash at temperature for a given time....easier just to use an insulated container.

Thanks for taking the time to show.
 
Like it, looks a lot easier when set out like that. How many litres of beer do you normally get from that set up? I think I will do something similar but without the top heater as I have no heating bucket like you so will most likely have to heat the water and transfer to the mash tub first.

Thanks for taking the time to show.

The Water Heater is an old (and scratched) ten quid FV from Wilco fitted with the element from a five-quid Tesco Kettle.

I brew in 23 litre batches. The volumes are:

o Hot Water = 25 litres

o Mash Tun = 32 litres

o Boiler = 32 litres

I decided that I am getting too old to be humping stuff around so I use a hose to fill the water heater and a trolley to move the FV about.

I've yet to solve how to get the boiled wort high enough to flow into the FV so I cool it and then lift the Boiler up to replace the Mash Tun. (The "cool it" bit was after I spilled some boiling wort over my foot earlier this year! :doh:)
 
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