Candi sugar acid

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Fore

Fore

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It seems it's not too easy to find cream of tartar in France. Will substituting with lemon juice be deterimental to flavour in any way?

Currently I only have lime juice. Can this be used in just the same way as lemon juice? Seems like a daft question, but I should ask :).

I also have phosphoric acid and the apparatus to measure quite accurately. Can I use phosphoric acid instead? If so, how much for 1 kg sugar? Should it be diliuted before adding?

Thanks.
 
I am surprised that it is not easy to get, as it is supposed to be a by-product from wine making. Have you tried to find it using it's chemical name - Potassium bitartrate or even potassium hydrogen tartrate? Not sure what the french translation is, but it should be reasonably similar.
 
Ryedale_Brassage said:
I am surprised that it is not easy to get, as it is supposed to be a by-product from wine making. Have you tried to find it using it's chemical name - Potassium bitartrate or even potassium hydrogen tartrate? Not sure what the french translation is, but it should be reasonably similar.
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Everything possible on the net, but I was hoping for off-the-shelf. Certainly supermarkets don't have it. I read that it might be possible in a pharmacy, so I tried. At first they had no idea what I was talking about. Then after an internet search, they said they could order in. In not ordering in Cream of Tartar.

So I think I've decided to proceed with lime juice. I've never seen a recipe with lime juice, only lemon juice, but I hope it's OK. I read that limes are slightly more acidic, but only slightly.
 
That will be fine. The hydrolysis of sucrose is sped up by acid, the specific acid doesn't matter. Recipes I've read have about 1g citric acid for 1kg of sugar. As lemon juice has at least 30g/L of citric acid in it, 30ml of juice should be plenty, which is about what you'd get from one lemon.
 
Fore said:
It seems it's not too easy to find cream of tartar in France. Will substituting with lemon juice be deterimental to flavour in any way?

Currently I only have lime juice. Can this be used in just the same way as lemon juice? Seems like a daft question, but I should ask :).

I also have phosphoric acid and the apparatus to measure quite accurately. Can I use phosphoric acid instead? If so, how much for 1 kg sugar? Should it be diliuted before adding?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

What are you going to do with it ? Are you trying to make Candi Sugar ?
 
Yes, my first attempt of making my own Candi Sugar, in prep for my first Belgian AG, a Duvel clone.

I find that adding normal sugar always leaves me with a strange blood like taste. That said, I recently did a Batemans Victory Ale with a little sugar, and that was blood like when young, but significantly improved with age. So I'm probably not leaving long enough. Still, no harm in trying Candi Sugar.

Interesting to read 1g acid / kg sugar. I guess I could use my phosphoric acid, but as it's 75%, I would need 1.3g/kg. And I guess that's the limiting factor, the ability to measure accurately.
 
Check out the baking section of your local supermarket.

The four "raising agents" usually on offer are Bicarbonate of Soda, Baking Powder, Yeast and Cream of Tartar.

The Cream of Tartar will be easily recognisable because nowadays (may God save us from greedy corporate swine) Cream of Tartar is sold in very small packets rather than in the tins or plastic containers used for the other three elements of baking.
 
I think you missed the France part. It's definitely not available in the supermarkets here; Iv'e tried a few and even asked local friends. And it's definately not baking powder or bicarbonate of soda. The first is a mix, which might contain a small proportion of cream of tartar. The second is sodium bicarbonate. Cream of tartar is tartaric acid. It's acid that is needed.
 
Fore said:
Interesting to read 1g acid / kg sugar. I guess I could use my phosphoric acid, but as it's 75%, I would need 1.3g/kg.
Click to expand...

Hold up a second. Phosphoric acid is more than twice the strength of citric (pka 2.1 vs. 3.1), and is also half the weight (98 vs. 192), so you would need around just under a quarter of the quantity to get the same acidity. That said, this isn't an exact science. You just need enough to make sure that the conversion of sucrose isn't painfully slow.
 
Fore said:
I think you missed the France part. It's definitely not available in the supermarkets here; Iv'e tried a few and even asked local friends. And it's definately not baking powder or bicarbonate of soda. The first is a mix, which might contain a small proportion of cream of tartar. The second is sodium bicarbonate. Cream of tartar is tartaric acid. It's acid that is needed.
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The acid is used to "cut" any grease/oil in your sugar pan. If there is any grease/oil residue on your pan the sugar will not caramelize, it will crystalize and will be no good for anything. Google "the stages of caramelizing sugar" ie soft ball/hard ball/ crack/caramel.
Take a heavy bottom saucepan, wipe the inside with and edible acid (WWV/lemon juice/lime juice) put 1kg of granulated sugar and 1li of water. bring to a boil. Turn down the heat. Do not walk away. If it starts to burn around the edges, dap it with a little cold water.
 
All the above advice is super, thanks. A lot clearer now. I'll be shelving the Phosphoric idea then :).

I already resarched a few video recipes and found one that I'm most comfortable with (he seems most informed). It really doesn't look difficult, and I could do it pretty quickly with the sugar I have in my cupboard. A bit of fun aswell. I'll tell my daughter I'm making her some sweets.

Thanks all. Here goes then. I'll let you know if my Duvel tastes of lime :doh:.
 
Fore said:
All the above advice is super, thanks. A lot clearer now. I'll be shelving the Phosphoric idea then :).

I already resarched a few video recipes and found one that I'm most comfortable with (he seems most informed). It really doesn't look difficult, and I could do it pretty quickly with the sugar I have in my cupboard. A bit of fun aswell. I'll tell my daughter I'm making her some sweets.

Thanks all. Here goes then. I'll let you know if my Duvel tastes of lime :doh:.
Click to expand...
Get some apples and sticks, take the sugar to "crack" temp. dip the apples in the sugar...Hey presto Toffee Apples.
A word of caution...Caramelized sugar is very hot and I mean very hot. If you manage to get some on your skin it will carry on burning/cooking. Please be very careful.
 
Your thread prompted me to do a little digging about invert sugars as there are several recipes in BYOBRA that use white table sugar in place of of invert syrup.

I found this site and If you can get your hands on golden syrup and blackstrap molasses you can blend them to make which ever sort of invert syrup you like so not have to mess about with acid and make your own

http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert/comment-page-1
 
We have spent, on average, six months of every year in France for the last thirty years so not being able to find something isn't news to us!

If something isn't available in the local Hyper-Market and it can be classed as a "chemical" then it will probably be a Pharmacy item.

I suggest that you go to a pharmacy and ask for:

Potassium Tartrate Acide
or
Crème de Tarter​

Of course, being France, not every pharmacy will stock it! :whistle:

"Bon chance!" as they say! :thumb: :thumb:
 
I did this once. Citric acid will do and can sometimes be got from supermarkets. As mentioned earlier lemon juice will do.

This process will take ages if going for deep red so be aware of that when fitting it in.

It is often recommended to add bicarbonate of soda to neutralize the solution... this will make it bubble up like hell so be ready to catch it if you do this (or pour into some of the water if doing in a kit).
 
MyQul said:
Here is also a guide from a while back on how to make it

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=12754&highlight=candi+sugar
Click to expand...
This link had me change my mind; now planning candi syrup, not candi sugar (poor daughter).

So please correct me if I'm wrong.... the big difference with syrup is that there is no need to lift the temperature at the end. Once you reach the right colour, just take off the heat, correct? And mix in water of course.

And one more... Duvel is very light coloured beer, so I need very light candi syrup. What is the minimum cooking time to be sure conversion has taken place. I think it's either 20 minutes or 30 minutes; I don't want to choose 20 and under do it.
 
Fore said:
This link had me change my mind; now planning candi syrup, not candi sugar (poor daughter).

So please correct me if I'm wrong.... the big difference with syrup is that there is no need to lift the temperature at the end. Once you reach the right colour, just take off the heat, correct? And mix in water of course.

And one more... Duvel is very light coloured beer, so I need very light candi syrup. What is the minimum cooking time to be sure conversion has taken place. I think it's either 20 minutes or 30 minutes; I don't want to choose 20 and under do it.
Click to expand...

Sorry I don't know the answer to your Q's. I was just looking at that guide a few days ago. I've never made candi syrup. Hopefully someone who has might know the answers
 

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