Is it OK to make a starter using sugar and nutrient?

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ScottM

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As above, I got my order in for my German lager kit and I want to get the yeast started. Unfortunately the Malt Miller didn't have any of the extra light DME in stock so I haven't got any. I was wondering if it would be OK to just use sugar and yeast nutrient to get the yeast multiplying.

I can see why using sugar alone could be detrimental but is there anything wrong with just using sugar and nutrient at this early stage? What are the benefits of using DME if the starter wort is just going to be tipped anyway?

I'd love to get this starter started but I don't want to do it if it's going to ruin my chances of good beer.

Thanks
 
Hi Scott,
I believe its to do with creating as similar an environment as possible for the yeast.

Using sugar and nutrient alone the yeast develop in the wrong way then when you pitch them into the brew they work with less than optimal performance

Sort of like puppy training! ;)
 
Scratch that. Just read that it's best to use DME to get the yeast used to chomping on more complex sugar than getting used to the simple sugar and being lazy. Ah well, I guess I'll just need to wait :D
 
LeithR said:
Hi Scott,
I believe its to do with creating as similar an environment as possible for the yeast.

Using sugar and nutrient alone the yeast develop in the wrong way then when you pitch them into the brew they work with less than optimal performance

Sort of like puppy training! ;)

Yeah I started googling after I asked lol.

Makes sense :)
 
I'm not saying a word! (just myself in trouble) :rofl:
 
Have you tryied the Inn House Brewery in Partick/Whiteinch? Failing that could you not use some malt extract from Holland & Barette if you cant wait?
 
Yes sugar is a no no. I wouldn't advocate brewing with H&B malt extract but it would probably do as an alternative for a starter or if you have any pale malt do a quick mini mash.

:thumb:
 
Yes but the problem is that it can turn off the metabolic pathways used to metabolise the more complex sugars in the wort resulting in beer which doesn't attenuate you just don't get the full potential out of the yeast.
 
wezil said:
I'm not saying a word! (just myself in trouble) :rofl:

Have you just used sugar before?


alanywiseman said:
Have you tryied the Inn House Brewery in Partick/Whiteinch? Failing that could you not use some malt extract from Holland & Barette if you cant wait?

graysalchemy said:
Yes sugar is a no no. I wouldn't advocate brewing with H&B malt extract but it would probably do as an alternative for a starter or if you have any pale malt do a quick mini mash.

:thumb:

I had a cunning plan. Rather than wait on DME to arrive I used 200g of the LME I have instead, should have thought about that earlier as it was my plan at first. That should be enough to get things started. I've ordered up a bag of DME which will hopefully be here in time for the "stepping up". If it's not then I'll use some more LME and just use some DME in the recipe instead. I'm hoping to use all LME though, so fingers crossed it'll be here in time.

I did think about the inn house brewery but I've got a lot on the next few days so won't get a chance to go in.


artyb said:
ive often used sugar, nutrient and water to rehydrate .. :wha:

always goes off like a rocket tbh.. :party:

Yeah, for re-hydrating that would be fine. I'm looking to step up the yeast over 5 days to a week, getting them to multiply in the right direction is a bit trickier from what I've read. I need to try and get the best I can, as I need approx 4-5L worth of yeast so that I can pitch at lager temps.
 
artyb said:
ive often used sugar, nutrient and water to rehydrate .. :wha:

always goes off like a rocket tbh.. :party:

Yeah, for re-hydrating that would be fine. I'm looking to step up the yeast over 5 days to a week, getting them to multiply in the right direction is a bit trickier from what I've read. I need to try and get the best I can, as I need approx 4-5L worth of yeast so that I can pitch at lager temps.[/quote]


ive only done it for a half pint of rehydrated yeast starter... :?
 
artyb said:
ive only done it for a half pint of rehydrated yeast starter... :?

Yeah, you don't really need much more for packet yeast. Something I only learned the other day, dried yeast has FAR more viable yeast than the vials.... as long as they are within date and stored correctly obviously.

I was really surprised when I found that out. The main advantage with vials is that there is far more choice with regards to style. If you are after a generic yeast, dry is the way to go :D
 
wezil said:
Have you just used sugar before?
Yes! ( to say anymore would invite the wrath of the brewing gods) :rofl:

Did it turn out OK? No issues with hitting the estimated FG etc? I've done it properly-ish for now, but I'm not adverse to giving things a go and learning from my own experience :)
 
The correct way to Rehydrate yeast is outlined here, which is taken from the original fortnight of Yeast from The Homebrew Digest. For those of you that do not know Dr Cone is head of the yeast production facility at Danstar (Nottingham, Windsor and London Dry Yeasts!!)

Dr Clayton Cone said:
Every strain of yeast has its own optimum rehydration temperature. All of them range between 95 F to 105F. Most of them closer to 105F. The dried yeast cell wall is fragile and it is the first few minutes (possibly seconds) of rehydration that the warm temperature is critical while it is reconstituting its cell wall structure.

As you drop the initial temperature of the water from 95 to 85 or 75 or 65F the yeast leached out more and more of its insides damaging the each cell. The yeast viability also drops proportionally. At 95 – 105 F, there is 100% recovery of the viable dry yeast. At 60F, there can be as much as 60% dead cells.

The water should be tap water with the normal amount of hardness present. The hardness is essential for good recovery. 250 -500 ppm hardness is ideal. This means that deionized or distilled water should not be used. Ideally, the warm rehydration water should contain about 0.5 – 1.0% yeast extract

For the initial few minutes (perhaps seconds) of rehydration, the yeast cell wall cannot differentiate what passes through the wall. Toxic materials like sprays, hops, SO2 and sugars in high levels, that the yeast normally can selectively keep from passing through its cell wall rush right in and seriously damage the cells. The moment that the cell wall is properly reconstituted, the yeast can then regulate what goes in and out of the cell. That is why we hesitate to recommend rehydration in wort or must. Very dilute wort seems to be OK.

We recommend that the rehydrated yeast be added to the wort within 30 minutes. We have built into each cell a large amount of glycogen and trehalose that give the yeast a burst of energy to kick off the growth cycle when it is in the wort. It is quickly used up if the yeast is rehydrated for more than 30 minutes. There is no damage done here if it is not immediately add to the wort. You just do not get the added benefit of that sudden burst of energy. We also recommend that you attemperate the rehydrated yeast to with in 15F of the wort before adding to the wort. Warm yeast into a cold wort will cause many of the yeast to produce petite mutants that will never grow or ferment properly and will cause them to produce H2S. The attemperation can take place over a very brief period by adding, in increments, a small amount of the cooler wort to the rehydrated yeast.

Many times we find that warm water is added to a very cold container that drops the rehydrating water below the desired temperature.

Sometimes refrigerated, very cold, dry yeast is added directly to the warm water with out giving it time to come to room temperature. The initial water entering the cell is then cool.

How do many beer and wine makers have successful fermentations when they ignore all the above? I believe that it is just a numbers game. Each gram of Active Dry Yeast contains about 20 billion live yeast cells. If you slightly damage the cells, they have a remarkable ability to recover in the rich wort. If you kill 60% of the cell you still have 8 billion cells per gram that can go on to do the job at a slower rate.

The manufacturer of Active Dry Beer Yeast would be remiss if they offered rehydration instructions that were less than the very best that their data indicated.

One very important factor that the distributor and beer maker should keep in mind is that Active Dry Yeast is dormant or inactive and not inert, so keep refrigerated at all times. Do not store in a tin roofed warehouse that becomes an oven or on a window sill that gets equally hot.

Active Dry Yeast looses about 20% of its activity in a year when it is stored at 75 F and only 4% when refrigerated.

The above overview of rehydration should tell you that there is a very best way to rehydrate.
There is also a simple How to . . . Rehydrate Yeast In the How To Forum from 2009 which was taken from the work by Dr Clayton Cone.

You have the information, do you want to play the 'numbers game', or give your yeast the very best start to fermentation???
 
I always use Light Malt Extract for stepping up yeast starters as recommended by the Yeast book. Using the light stuff keeps the wort between 1.030 and 1.040 and if I end up pitching this in its entirety, it has less effect on the colour of the wort, might even have less flavour impact but I'm not sure on that.
 
ScottM said:
Great read that Aleman, all makes perfect sense!

It is and despite the efforts of Dr Cone & Chris White et. al. to educate and advise you will still read anecdotal evidence from home brewers saying they just sprinkle it onto the wort and everything is perfect and that they can't understand why anybody bothers to rehydrate. :roll:
 
orlando said:
I always use Light Malt Extract for stepping up yeast starters as recommended by the Yeast book. Using the light stuff keeps the wort between 1.030 and 1.040 and if I end up pitching this in its entirety, it has less effect on the colour of the wort, might even have less flavour impact but I'm not sure on that.

The colour of DME shouldn't make any difference to the gravity. I believe all DME has a yield of approx 95%. Will obviously have a massive difference on colour though.

Reading around, I haven't read the yeast book yet, it's suggested that using an extract as close to your brew is recommended. Reason being that you want to get the yeast used to making use of the types of sugar that are going to be available in your final wort. To me this makes absolute sense and I can see how it would be advantageous. Using extra light DME to culture the yeast and then pitching into a stout wouldn't really make much sense as the yeast will be used to the types of sugar available in extra light DME rather than the dark levels found in a stout.
 
orlando said:
ScottM said:
Great read that Aleman, all makes perfect sense!

It is and despite the efforts of Dr Cone & Chris White et. al. to educate and advise you will still read anecdotal evidence from home brewers saying they just sprinkle it onto the wort and everything is perfect and that they can't understand why anybody bothers to rehydrate. :roll:

The kits actually have instructions that say to do just that. It's common knowledge that the kits are all about less hassle and fast beer though.

However, IIRC the vial of yeast that I bought (WLP) suggested pitching it straight into 25L of wort also... as long as the temps were correct.

So it would appear that we are being instructed to do so by suppliers and manufacturers rather than anecdotal evidence.
 

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