NEWBIE DILEMMA: Problems,or perhaps just a question of time?[Youngs Brew Buddy lager]

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daveog

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I was given a Youngs Brew - Brew Buddy 40 pint lager kit last Christmas and the box pronounced that it would be ready to drink in 21 days. Having looked at many of the threads on here I fear this may have been optimistic on my part! :grin:

I made the brew up on 10th December hoping it would be ready for New Year. I started taking my first hydrometer readings on 14th December as the kit says it will be ready in 4-6 days. I have been storing in the bottom of the combi boiler cupboard and the readings were taken at around 18c and were as follows:

14/12 1,020
15/12 1,012
16/12 1,014
17/12 1,013

The kit says "do not bottle until the SG has dropped to between 1,006-1,000."

Do you think the beer could be dud as the kit was Best Before Nov 2014 or if I'm patient do you think the readings will go down further in time? The surface of the beer is still and the last three days readings are almost the same. Is it unsafe to bottle above 1,006? :-?

Any advice gratefully received!

Best wishes, David
 
I don't know where they find the people to write these instructions.

I think the marketing department writes the bit about the beer being ready to drink in 21 days and the legal team then adds the bit about not bottling above 1006.

I'm embarrassed to say I've NEVER managed to get a kit brew down to 1006. However I've never had bottle bombs and never had a beer that tastes sweet.

I always wait about 3 weeks and then if the reading doesn't change two days in a row I bottle.

I'd only worry if fg was close to 1020 or more (that my beer was stuck).

Your hydrometer readings are a bit out BTW. It's not possible for the fg to go up and down like that at constant temperature (unless you add malt or sugar). They will go down or stay constant.
 
You gravity readings as slowly dropping. You say the gravity reading are almost the same. Standard advice, I'd wait till they are the same for three days, then bottle
 
Ym: "I don't know where they find the people to write these instructions."

:thumb: Couldn't agree more. I've yet to brew anything - bar Coopers stout :drink: - that fermented out within anything like the destruction's estimate.

Daveog:
The 'safe' bottling fg will vary from brew to brew but as a basic rule 1008 is a viable starting point. In this particular case I'd use the kit instructions as your guide. Your brew might be finished at 1013 but the discrepancy between that and the manufacturer's suggested fg would prompt me to wait a bit yet.
Good advice above from Yeastmaster and MyQul, trust your hydrometer. Once below 1010 three readings taken on three consecutive days that show no change should mean safe to bottle. Much above 1010 no change could mean a stuck fermentation which the priming sugar might re-start; this is when bottle bombs could become a potential issue.
If you're concerned that you might be bottling a bit too soon you could use plastic bottles or, if you do use glass, fill just one or two plastic bottles and keep a close watch on their carbonation level.
I'm unfamiliar with BrewBuddy kits but I have to say that 21 days from start to 'ready to drink' flies in the face of all I've read.
'Just about drinkable' maybe, but few if any beers don't improve dramatically with longer maturation.
 
I've got a sneaky feeling that the stated FG is only if the manufacturer gave you enough yeast in the kit. Some kit manufacturer just don't give you enough yeast. The average 23L kit needs about 11g yeast. Kit manufacturers often only give you about 7g. This lack of yeast means that the available yeast will conk out before you hit your target FG (your also underpitching so you can get off flavours)

I recently did a tweeked London Pride. My FG was 1.007 (finally being1.004 with priming sugar). The FG was so low (a lot lower than my target of 1.011, incendently) because I used a yeast with excellent attenuation and pitched the correct amount
 
"I've got a sneaky feeling that the stated FG is only if the manufacturer gave you enough yeast in the kit".

Hmm.. I am in no position to disagree because I'm new, I'm not AG and I don't own (insert thunderclap here) The Yeast Book! Waiting for the library - sorry, - "Idea Store" ( :sick: ) to get back to me. I may have to prise open my wallet (last time I did that the Queen blinked).

MyQul, don't the yeasties multiply and strengthen as they feed? From all the replies to the yeast Qs thread I'd got the idea that, if it was strong enough to start fermentation, the yeast supplied would become more than capable of finishing the job and, by the time they've got halfway, they're almost fighting over the fermentables, not struggling to cope..

Have I got it wrong again?:confused:
 
You need a certain number of starting yeast cells to then grow to the required amount to cope with and consume a particular amount of wort.

I'm sure you've come across the term 'under-pitching' before? It's like it says on the tin, you haven't pitched enough which causes problems due to the yeast getting knackered.

tbh, I'm unclear why given a certain amount of wort yeast can't just keep growing and consuming it
 
also its a good idea to make sure you rehydrate your dried yeast as just sprinkling it on top of the wort can kill 50% of the yeast which can add to the problems of manufacturers not giving you enough yeast
 
"tbh, I'm unclear why given a certain amount of wort yeast can't just keep growing and consuming it"

Precisely! I was under the impression that that's exactly what does happen. Like the advice lately from the guys who harvest and propogate from the sludge, I thought that once it was actually underway it would keep multiplying and growing in strength, a sort of 'all or nothing' situation.

Yes, I've heard of underpitching, but again I'd got the idea that this would either just increase lag time (worst case then being that fermentation would take a bit longer but be fine once it got going) or that it wouldn't take off at all, in which case one would soon realise and could re-pitch.

I'm perfectly ready to be corrected but I really did think that, once underway, yeast was self propogating provided it has enough sugars available.

daveog,
Any change to your Brew Buddy fg?
 
Aha, success! After lots of googling I've finally found the answer - sterols

"The two main factors associated with controlling the level of cell growth in fermentations are sterol content in cell membranes and amount of sugar available. In most standard fermentations, the sterol content in the cultures is the limiting factor in cell growth. Sterols (See Oxygenation section) are only synthesized during the early stages of fermentations and are diluted every time a cell buds. When sterol levels reach a certain point in the cell membrane, the cell will stop budding"

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_makingastarter.cfm

Your right with about the guys harvesting slurry. Theortically you can harvest and propagate yeast from batch to batch indefinately. But it seems a combination of the sugar content of the wort and sterols means that you have to pitch enough yeast each batch for the yeast to ferment everything it can
 
MyQul, great stuff and thank you..
I don't pretend to fully understand about the sterols but I think I get the gist. Basically, there can be billions of new cells produced during fermentation but each genetation will become prgressively lower in sterols which will make them less effective at metabolising the sugars. In other words, it's not the number of cells but their abilities that counts.
And I, with my predilection for overproof beers, should stock up on extra yeast.

The 'yeast questions' thread is becoming a very useful resource thanks to some excellent posts and this would make an valuable contribution.. It might be helpful for others if these last few posts could be over there. Your thoughts?
 
BruinTuns said:
I don't pretend to fully understand about the sterols
Click to expand...

Me neither really, were getting into the realm of microbiology here and some pretty complicated stuff.

My reading of the sterols is a little different to yours. The sterols control how many times a cell can clone itself (when googling I found out that it seems each cell can only reproduce about six times due to decreasing amount of sterols). So yeast can only reproduce a certain overall amount from a pitched amount of yeast. If this overall amount (pitched amount + offspring) is worked too hard it gets tired and gives up fermenting, so this I think is why you can get stuck fermentations from underpitching

But your also right in that I have read that the health of the yeast is more important than yeast amount
 
daveog said:
Thank you for all the responses! 1,008 today - hopefully my patience will pay off.
Click to expand...

bottle now ;)

you can supliment the basic building blocks (sterols..) for yeast population growth by adding a tiny drop of olive oil to your starter mix, not something i have done (yet) but might be worth a look into if the subject interests you..
 

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