Sparging advice

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franjames

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Hello all, its my first first post here, so apologies in advance if any of the following is unclear or is repeating information already out there, but help gratefully received ....

After a first couple of successful all-grain brews, my last two have gone belly-up during the sparging phase.The basic problem is the wort being produced at the end of it is of much too low an SG (even accounting for SG rising later during boil).

The first 5-6 litres or so of wort coming from the mash tun at start of sparge seem fine, so I'm thinking the mash phase has gone fine and that's not the issue. And I'm sure temps during that phase are in the zone.

I'm fly sparging, and making sure water for sparging is between 74-77c. But I'm noticing that the temperature in the mash tun is dropping way below 60c during sparging, and the wort being produced is running increasingly clear as the sparge proceeds.

It might be a number of things

- Is it the ambient room temperature effecting things (16-18 celcius)?
- Should I be more scientific with the water / grain mix. I'm not really measuring it, just making sure its a nice thick porridgey mix?
- Or is it possibly something else?

Any help or insight is much appreciated !!!
 
What was the SG of the runnings at the end of the sparge? Was your OG lower than expected? If so, by how much?
Neither the mash thickness nor ambient temperature will cause a low SG.
 
Are you making sure there's at least an inch of water above the grain bed? Sparging only with as much water as your drawing off (and vice versa?) I sparge with a crude, home made device and due to the heat loss I have to use much hotter sparge liquor circa 80 degrees plus
 
Have you considered giving batch sparging a try??
I will admit to having flow balancing problems and volume judging/measuring with fly sparging so found the simplicity and ease of batch sparging a fereshing change to my brewday procedure.

Simply top up the tun at the end of mash with sparge liqour, give it a good stir and let it sit for 25-30 mins.

Then drain the tun and take note of the volume drawn, call it X for now.

for the second batch sparge subtract X from your target preboil volume and you will have a precise accurate volume to add for the second batch :)

If your tun is small you may need to do 3 x batches, no biggy..

Batch sparging Can apparently result in a slightly lower BHE by all accounts?? since reading this i have added an extra handful of grain as a token gesture to most of my brews, but have not noticed any significant hit on the BHE i still maintain a bhe over 80% for most brews, not that its a major issue. A bit more jugging back or vourlaffing to clear the tun runnings may be necessary too,

on the downside it can add a little time to the brew 10-20 mins (assuming 2 x batches is sufficient) And they are 10-20 minutes of relaxed brew time.
 
+1 to try batch sparging, its totally fool froof so any sparge issue can be solved by it and you will know for sure if the sparge is the issue.
 
Thanks for these replies. I've been away so only having the chance to pick-up.

Stange-steve - my first runnings from the mash tun were somewhere around 1060 when first opening up after mash and before sparging. Testing the runnings as I went along during sparging they kept dropping during down to 1008 by the time I was 14-16l diluting the whole overall wort SG and getting even more watery after that.

I stopped at 20l wort rather than planned 27l. After boil, OG was 1040 when I'd expected 1052. Not end of the world, but if I'd gone for a 27l wort boiled down after hopping to 23l (ish) - as I had planned - then it would have been much lower OG for fermentation. So I'm doing something wrong somewhere.

Chuffer - On the point about an inch of water above the grain bed. Is that for the mash or sparging?

I am sparging only amount I'm running off but not leaving an inch of water at any stage. I'll give that a go, and use hotter sparge water as you suggest.

Fil, Simon 12 - thanks for the suggestion. I'll also give batch sparging a go soon
 
Fran, you have two gravities you're trying to hit. OG, this is after boil. And then pre-boil gravity. Pre-boil gravity is a lot lower but don't worry depending on your setup you'll boil off a bit to compensate.
When sparging you should go at a snails pace. For a full batch I'll sparge for 45 minutes. That's letting only a trickle run out. I stop when I get near my target volume and the runnings hit 1.004.
So let's say you're shooting for 1.052 and your first runnings we're 1.060 then after sparging you should have hit 1.046 or so. My system boils off 2.6 liters per hour. So after 60 minutes if you're still not on your goal, you can do 2 things, keep boiling to hit it or add sugar.
The real reason your not hitting the estimated gravity is due to efficiency. Everyone's system and techniques will produce different efficiencies. As well as grain storage, how course the grain was crushed. After figuring out your efficiency of your setup, if you use some of the popular apps, you can put that into the settings. This will adjust your recipes for your efficiency. Does that make sense?
 
Are you making sure there's at least an inch of water above the grain bed? Sparging only with as much water as your drawing off (and vice versa?) I sparge with a crude, home made device and due to the heat loss I have to use much hotter sparge liquor circa 80 degrees plus

Hotter than 78 is asking for extraction of tannins from the grain, not recommended.
 
Running down to 1.004 is not recommended either, it extracts tannin. John Palmer recommends stopping the sparge around the 1010 level.

+1 on the batch sparging too ... I have found that with my primitive picnic cooler and the small volumes of grain I am dealing with, there is no appreciable difference between a batch sparge and a flying sparge in terms of efficiency. I don't often get much above 70% efficiency in the mash. To do that, I have to increase the volume of sparge water and then boil it off again. And that uses more gas. I have decided that I would rather settle for lower efficiency, use a bit more malt, avoid tannin extraction at the end of the run and above all not have to fill the house up with steam.
 
Hotter than 78 is asking for extraction of tannins from the grain, not recommended.

I copied this down from one of the You Tube videos:

BREWING TIPS​
Strike Water = 2.6 litres per 1kg of grain.

Mash at 65 to 70 degrees for one hour - DO NOT exceed 75 degrees.

After one hour Mash Out with near boiling water to raise mash temperature to 77 degrees to stop sugar production - leave for 10 minutes.

Lauter until wort runs clear (using TWO jugs).

Heat SPARGE water to 80 degrees.

Sparge at one litre per minute. Stop sparge when runnings reach SG1.008 / SG1.012.

Overfill boil kettle so that there is no need to add more water later.


I also picked up this "No Sparge" system.


BREWING TIPS

NO SPARGE SYSTEM

Strike Water = 2.6 litres per 1kg of grain.

Mash at:

o 55 to 66 degrees (High Alcohol - dry) or

o 68 to 72 degrees (Low Alcohol - sweet)

for one hour.

DO NOT exceed 75 degrees.

Mash with full amount of water required for boil (+/- 25 litres).

Stir after 20 and 40 minutes.

Lauter until wort runs clear and then run off everything into the boiler without sparging.

Overfill boil kettle so that there is no need to add more water later.​

As a general rule, I fall somewhere between the two sets of "Tips".

I don't "Mash Out" with very hot water; but I do Sparge at about 1 litre per minute.

I do re-circulate the wort using two jugs until it runs clear.

I regularly use 80 degree Sparge Water and I can't say that I have produced any unusual tastes. Maybe, because of the cooling effect of recirculating the wort and the slow rate of Sparge, the temperature of the grain-bed never exceeds the 75 degree maximum limit.

I haven't tried the "No Sparge" system but I do tend to mash at the higher temperature of 68 to 72 degrees in order to produce a sweet & low ABV type of beer; especially when making a Mild Ale. :thumb:

God, how I love this hobby. :thumb: :thumb:
 
Fran, how much wort do you get from the mash?

I may have misread your post, but your numbers seem to suggest no more than 6L (20 boil -14 sparge).

For a 23L batch I start with <>19L pre mash (14L post mash), add 14L sparge and get <>28L for a boil. If you are only getting 6L from your mash that is going to hit your efficiency hard.


... my first runnings from the mash tun were somewhere around 1060 when first opening up after mash and before sparging. Testing the runnings as I went along during sparging they kept dropping during down to 1008 by the time I was 14-16l ...

I stopped at 20l wort rather than planned 27l. ....
 
Fran, how much wort do you get from the mash?

I may have misread your post, but your numbers seem to suggest no more than 6L (20 boil -14 sparge).

For a 23L batch I start with <>19L pre mash (14L post mash), add 14L sparge and get <>28L for a boil. If you are only getting 6L from your mash that is going to hit your efficiency hard.

I totally agree with dhb on this. There's a point where the liquids can't take anymore, like balancing what's left to what can enter in the water.
As for tannins you'll be hard press to get them with sparge water up to 80 or so degrees. You have to remember that your grain has been mashing and dropping temp from 68 down. To get that much grain and liquid above 80 to release tannins would take boiling water. Which no one would do. But we do want to stop mashing to just rinse the grain.
 
The best sparge arm i have seen is here
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSb9WjPfSY4&feature=youtu.be[/ame]
 
Hotter than 78 is asking for extraction of tannins from the grain, not recommended.

Never noticed any adverse effects and, as I say, I've had to do this due to heat loss, the actual water hitting the grains will be lower and the temp of the mash doesn't raise to anywhere near 78

edit, reading dutto's post I realised I don't do a mash out and so, if I did, I could probably lower the sparge temp
 
Thanks all for these comments, suggestions and ideas.

I'm planning a brew next week so lets see how it goes next time. I'm going to be more scientific with the grain/water mix, sparge a bit more slowly and patiently, and keep my sparge water around the top end of your suggestions - as I know the room is cold and water temp likely to drop quickly. Let's see where I end up!

I realise I wasn't too clear on the amount of wort I'd produced as it may have read as if I only got 6l of wort. Actually, when I got to 14l of wort I realised the SG of the runnings was much lower than expected, but I kept plodding on until I had 20l of wort. Hope that makes more sense.

Thanks again
 
Hi,

Sorry to jump in, but please could you explain the mash out?

I'm hoping to attempt my first brew shortly and I'm trying to decide between the two options for the tun linked below, the integrated (lawn sprinkler) sparge arm or no sparge arm. Not sure if the integrated system will increase heat loss or if I'll really use it or just go for batch sparge or no sparge. I think the 'O' ring looks easier to clean etc than the 'total' filter option.

http://www.allgraingarage.co.uk/product-page/allgraingarage-com-mash-tun

Please advise

Cheers,
iamthefly
 
Hi,

Sorry to jump in, but please could you explain the mash out?

I'm hoping to attempt my first brew shortly and I'm trying to decide between the two options for the tun linked below, the integrated (lawn sprinkler) sparge arm or no sparge arm. Not sure if the integrated system will increase heat loss or if I'll really use it or just go for batch sparge or no sparge. I think the 'O' ring looks easier to clean etc than the 'total' filter option.

http://www.allgraingarage.co.uk/product-page/allgraingarage-com-mash-tun

Please advise

Cheers,
iamthefly

I'll jump in a bit.
Using some kind of sparge arm will lower the temp quickly. I would only recommend using them if you use some kind of heated recirculating system. You can look up HERMS (heat exchange recirculating mash system) on YouTube and see a ton of ideas.
Easiest way is just to pour a liter at a time, keeping 4 or 5 cm of water above the grain. That way you can keep most of the sparge water on a heat source maintaining that 75 degrees. As you go through brewing you start building a system that you're comfortable with. There's no right way. But there are wrong ways!
I sparge until my runnings coming out are measuring 2 to 3 brix. That's about 1.007 but watch for your target boil volume. If you're sinking lower like 1.004 but still have a ways to go to hit your boil volume, then start mixing and measuring your total runnings to see if your hitting your pre boil gravity. If these numbers I'm saying makes you wonder where you get those numbers than it tells me you're not using software. If so, GET IT. I use BeerSmith. It's cheap but what it does makes up for it after 1 brew.
Anyways, if you're getting close to your pre boil gravity but volume is still low then it tells you your efficiency was too low. You can toss in some sugar to make up for it but then update your software to reflect your system and style of efficiency. In future brews this will help and give you less headaches.
Remember to sparge slowly. Your run off should be a trickle and 24 liters should take you 40 minutes or more.
 
It depends on how far off the deep end you want to go with this hobby (obsession). The later one I've heard does well and for the price, element, heat control, valve and I think it has a false bottom,.. it's a plus one on skill. But many, many use the cooler box set up. They hold heat well. If your just getting into this and want to go from the pits and learn all the details about brewing, then go cheap and work on your technique. But be cautious if you have other obligations. I.e., wife, kids, dogs,.. 2 of those you can just lock in the pantry but the other, animal rights groups will go bonkers.
 

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