The final push

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Vossy1

Landlord.
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Right guys I'm in need of some help.
I'm making the final push to remove copper and brass from my system completely.
I've left this ti'll last as I know bugger all about it :roll:

I want to change the coil in my heat exchanger and associated pump pipework to 10mm stainless, be it 304 or 316.

The question is, how do you go about rolling 10mm ss tube to a coil roughly 4" in diameter?
 
:lol:

I've been searching for 2 days for just that reason :D
Macc models may be able to help, but they were engaged for most of the day...I'll try again tomorrow.
 
I dunno, depends on the wall thickness I suppose.
You can buy ss tube benders quite cheaply from tool station that will bend the tube 180 deg.
I would imagine you can make a coil using one, but you'd be limited to coil diameter.
 
Good Luck V1.
SS is a pain to bend when in tubular form. I'd imagine you'd be pulling your hair out after a few hr's trying to do it yourself with a pipe bender-i wouldn't want to do a coil in copper with my pipe benders-it'd be a nightmare.
Your going to need to find a specialist i reckon.
 
This is what I'm looking to replace

I decided to do a complete overhaul of my system seeing as I'm making a new boiler/copper and mash tun.

My heat exchanger has had a design flaw since I made it. Basically the inlet and outlet to the heat exchanger came in through the top of the vessel. This meant on draining down there would always be some residual fluid left in the the copper pipe. It also meant an liquid lock could form which made it hard to prime my recirc pump.
I've taken it apart and corrected the flaw with the inlet coming up through the bottom of the vessel and the outlet through the top.

I never covered making this initially so I though it may be of interest to some of you guys :wink:

The bits

100_2707408x308.jpg


These consist of:-

A stainless steel pasta jar which I bought from Debenhams in the sales for £4 (I think...long time ago now :roll: )
1 x kettle element
1 x 1/2" male to 10mm compression fitting
1 x anode (new addition)
1 x roll of 10mm copper tube
2 x 10mm elbows

Tools required,

A drill, a dremmel, 20 & 40mm hole saw bits, a 10mm hss bit,
a file, a hack saw, a blow tourch, solder and wire wool.


The heat exchanger coil is 10mm copper pipe which was wound around a fire extinguisher to get a coil of copper small enough to fit inside the stainless vessel. I took the outlet feed off at a right angle, by soldering a elbow onto one end of the coil along with a small piece of copper pipe which exits through a 10mm hole at the top left hand side of the vessel.
At the other end of the copper coil I soldered another elbow to make the inlet feed vertical, again with a small piece of copper pipe

The first thing to do was to make a 40mm hole dead center in the base of the vessel wall, where the element would be mounted.
To the outside of this I drilled a 20mm hole for the inlet fitting, being careful to allow room for the lock nut of the element, and the fitting.
I used a constant supply of cold water to cool the hole saw bit and vessel whilst drilling. Then I filed the burrs off which were left after drilling the holes, with a dremmel.

100_2709408x308.jpg


Next I had to prepare the brass fitting for the inlet.
The 1/2" male to 10mm compression fitting, has a collar inside it that prevents 10mm tube from going all the way through it.
To get the 10mm copper tube to pass through the fitting, I used a 10mm titanium drill bit to drill through the collar, thus removing it, using a vice to secure the fitting whilst drilling.

I then screwed the fitting into the 20mm hole in the vessel, from the outside, applying some JB Weld to make sure it sealed water tight.

100_2716408x308.jpg


Now it was time to insert the copper coil.
Before doing this I offered the copper coil to the vessel to see roughly where the outlet would be. I marked this position, then drilled a 10mm hole through the vessel wall, at this point.
The inlet tube of the copper coil passes through the brass fitting in the base of the vessel. Then I attached the 10mm olive and nut, and tightened. I coaxed the outlet tube through the hole at the top of the vessel and then fitted the element securing it with the lock nut

100_2734408x308.jpg


100_2736408x308.jpg


I haven't fitted the anode yet.

The reason for not sealing the area around where the outlet exits the vessel, is to allow any pressure generated by the heated water to escape, as the lid is fitted with a seal.

EDIT

I had to cut some copper tube away from the coil to make my mods and thought it would be a good time to check for verdigris. I cut the removed sections of copper pipe in half. length ways, and was please to find spotless copper staring back at me 8)
 
That'll keep you busy i reckon. Why you getting rid of the copper?
 
Why you getting rid of the copper?

Basically any stagnant water on copper can lead to verdigris, which is poisonous :shock:
I can't see inside my HE coil and don't want any 'risk'...if that makes sense.

I'm paranoid and it will put my mind at rest :D

I've just got the latest copy of the Brewers Journal from the CBA. It suggests that copper and brass leaching into your wort can lead to stalled ferments....
 
V1, thanks for the explaination re non ferrous metals in the system. :cool: I asked a similar question on another HB forum. The feedback was that their inclusion was not detrimental and in fact some brewers were know to add pieces of copper to the brew to give it "old style" flavour.

I understand Brewlabs at Sunderland, as part of their brewing course, are advising that copper and brass should not be part of the brewing system. I'm trying for all stainless & no JB weld :P

"Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you". :D
 
But i like copper :( :( :(

And copper will always be part of your system as thats how your water arrives in your system. Unless you have your own water supply. Like me. :twisted: :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
And copper will always be part of your system as thats how your water arrives in your system. Unless you have your own water supply. Like me

The verdigris aspect is only one part of the issue regards copper, and that's only an issue in the presence of air, so water carrying pipes aren't prone to it on the inside...unless air is present.
The issue is between acidified wort and the solubility of ions in the vessels that contain it.
A small amount of trace copper and iron is needed for healthy yeast metabolism, however in larger amounts they can be toxic to yeast, not that as homebrewers we should ever encounter these levels.

According to the reading, both ions can also catalyse unwated reactions, turning phenols into polyphenols, in the presence of oxygen, and as they polyphenols floc they can cause a haze in beer.

I'm not sure what I make of it all.

TBH, when I clean my cfc with saniclean, I don't like the idea that the wort also has the same effect, effectively stripping off the outer oxidised coating on the copper.
This is really apparent when a dull IC goes into the copper but a spangly clean one comes out.

All I want to do is minimise the amount of possible variables in the system...I'm not saying you can't produce good beer with them present though ;)
 
verdigris

This sounds like a bad thing......

Do I want to know what it causes? :pray: :?
 
This sounds like a bad thing......

Do I want to know what it causes?

Most important line near the bottom

VERDIGRIS, a pigment, consisting of basic copper carbonates, made by acting upon copper plates with pyroligneous acid soaked up in cloths, exposing the plates to air, then dipping in water, and finally scraping off the greenish crust; the plate is re-exposed and the operation repeated till it is used up. Another method consists in exposing thin copper sheets to the acid vapours rising from the residues or "mares" of wine factories, the product being scraped off, and the plate reexposed. Both processes require several weeks. The pigment appears with several shades of blue and green; blue verdigris is chiefly CuO Cu(C 2 H 3 0 2) 2.6H 2 0, while light blue and green verdigris contain 2CuO Cu(C 2 H 3 0 2) 2.2H 2 0. Besides being used as a paint it is employed in dyeing and calico-printing, and also in the manufacture of other paints, e.g. Schweinfurt green, which is a double salt of the acetate and arsenite. A liniment or ointment is also used in medicine as a cure for warts. It is an irritant poison (hence the need that acid substances should never be cooked in copper utensils); the best antidote is white of egg and milk.
 
Knew I shouldn't have asked - off to get some eggs and milk ;) :pray:
 
:D ...

I don't really think it affects us to much as homebrewers. It only forms when copper is wet and exposed to air (green stains on pipes), but that's why I want rid of pipe where I can't see into it to see if theres any present.
You could get round this with an IC by putting it in the oven to dry it after use.
 
I liked the bit about it being used for warts, wort, geddit?
I'll get my coat...
 

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