Boiling & Hard water

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Varnish

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I want to do an IPA in a Burton sytle, which means chaning my water profile.

I've calculated the salts needed etc, but I need to reduce the hardness by boiling the water.

So,
How long do I boil for?
How long do I let it settle before running the boiled water off?
 
Varnish said:
I want to do an IPA in a Burton sytle, which means chaning my water profile.

I've calculated the salts needed etc, but I need to reduce the hardness by boiling the water.
Actually you do not, Burton has permanently hard water . . . Hardness is a measure of the amount of calcium and magnesium ions in the water, calcium and magnesium are good ions in brewing, which is why we use Calcium sulphate, calcium chloride and magnesium sulphate as water treatment salts.

What you do need to do is to reduce the alkalinity levels in your water. Alkalinity is the opposite of acidity and is a measure of the amount of hydrogen carbonate (HCO3-) ions in the water. Water companies confuse the issue as they used to quote alkalinity as equivalent hardness CaCO3.

The good news is that alkalinity is reduced by boiling, the bad news is that hardness is as well.

Varnish said:
How long do I boil for?
How long do I let it settle before running the boiled water off?
Boiling time depends on how much alkalinity you have to eliminate, I know one brewer in Tilehurst that cannot remove all his alkalinity by boiling, Graham Wheeler states that a 30 minute boil is sufficient, I am not convinced that this is the case . . .a cheaper option is to use a dilute acid, and Brupak sell a very suitable one called CRS (carboante Reduction Solution), Once you know your alkalinity (You can measure it with an alkalinity testing kit from Salifert) you 1ml of CRS eliminates 180mg of alkalinity.

Many brewers who still boil have found that they have to let the liquor settle overnight to allow all the precipitate to settle.
 
Thanks Aleman.

So a good 45 min+ boil with an overnight rest.

What I meant was I have to reduce the carbonate level (by boiling), and then replace it with sulphate (using gypsum).
I have to make the water soft in order to make it hard. But with the right sort of hardness.
 
I live on chalk and cannot burtonise my water. Have boiled to reduce temp hardness but leaves the boiler needing a good clean and elements get very furred. I use CRS as this creates sulphates and chlorides but no residues and gets close. but have too much Na+ and chlorides to start with.

I would have to buy bottled water and work from that to burtonise.

I did boil for about 40 mins or so but just left it in the HLT until it had cooled to strike temp that was enough time for precipertation, saved energy too.
 
According to Wessex water co. my water is:

CaCO3 213mg/L
[Ca2+ 85 mg/L CO32- 128 mg/L]
Mg2+ 5 mg/L
Na1+ 7 mg/L
SO42- 15 mg/L
Cl1- 10 mg/L

Burton water is (apparently)
Ca2+ 133 mg/L
CO32- 20 mg/L
Mg2+ 20 mg/L
Na1+ 30 mg/L
SO42- 367 mg/L
Cl1- 46 mg/L

I put these figures into Grahams(?) calculator, and after boiling it said I needed:
0.515g of Calcium sulphate per Litre
0.148g of Magnesium Sulphate per litre
0.058g of Sodium Chloride per litre

Which all seems simple enough.
But now I'm wondering if my water is too chalky to actually achieve this.

Looks like I'll have to buy a pH meter.
 
Varnish said:
I put these figures into Grahams(?) calculator, and after boiling it said I needed:
0.515g of Calcium sulphate per Litre
0.148g of Magnesium Sulphate per litre
0.058g of Sodium Chloride per litre

Which all seems simple enough.
But now I'm wondering if my water is too chalky to actually achieve this.

Looks like I'll have to buy a pH meter.
Unless you are an :ugeek: there is no need to buy a pH meter. Water treatment really is very simple, but it has been made very complicated by authors that do not know what they are talking about and Murphys threw a curve ball into the mix by recommending a set of profiles for the various beer styles. These Profiles have now been incorporated into many 'programs' and 'calculators' with very little thought about what they are intending to achieve.

First off and the most critical factor in producing a water suitable for a pale ale is to reduce your alkalinity to below 50mg/l and ideally below 30mg/l. While a moderate drop in alkalinity can be achieved through boiling, especially with added gypsum, but a much more effective method is to use CRS. The snag here is that adding a random quantity of acid to your liquor is as much a bad thing as just boiling it. What you need to do is to firstly measure your alkalinity and this can be done using the Salifert Carbonate Hardness/Alkalinity Test Kitwhich is quick, cheap and sufficiently accurate.

The kit is surprisingly simple, you add 4ml of of water to a test tube, and then add 2 drops of indicator solution which turns the water blue/green. You then add drop by drop from a syringe with a fine tip the KH Reagent (Acid of a known concentration) to the test tube, swirling to mix the contents. Eventually the solution turns orange-red/pink. You then compare the amount of acid used with a table to determine the alkalinity in meq/L . . . multiply that by 50 to give the alkalinity in mg/L (ppm) as CaCO3 . . . once you know the amount of alkalinity you multiply it by the total amount of liquor you are going to use, and then work out how much CRS you need. (Say you ended up with a measured amount of 235mg/l and you use 30L of liquor, you need to eliminate 235-30 = 205mg/l so 205*30 = 6150mg of alkalinity. Each ml of CRS neutralises 1803mg so 6150/183 = 33.6 ml of CRS is needed) . . . The recent Brew Day I assisted at we used a Litre of CRS!!!

Ok so that is all the liquor treated to reduce the alkalinity to a sensible desired level . . . Using Acid means that we have boosted the sulphate and chloride (but not by a lot overall), but left the calcium levels unchanged . . . Calcium is a good ion and we need to ensure that we have enough of it in the mash / boil / FV. What I do is to use a custom profile in Grahams calculator then enter my current water profile as the desired set a 4 to 1 sulphate to chloride ratio and then set the sulphate level to around 250-300 . . . and everything magically works out. Remember that my only interest here is to increase the calcium levels, I have no interest in adding sodium . . . it has no real benefit to the brewing process . . . . . there might be some benefit to using magnesium sulphate but it is not all that significant.

So really all water treatment boils down to
1) Reduce your alkalinity to a suitable level for the style you are brewing
2) Increase your calcium levels to above 100-150 using either calcium sulphate or calcium chloride (or a mixture) depending on whether you want to accentuate hops or malt in the final beer.

Sorry if I've been a bit of an :ugeek: and this post is a bit longer than I intended
 
Aleman said:
Do a titration
No problem I even have a burette. I use it for measuring CCs when I do an engine build.

So the acid bonds with the CO3 and produces a salt which doesn't contribute to hardness. Is it the old baking powder and vinegar trick and the CO3 is converted to CO2 and calcium acetate. Does this throw a PPT?

So I assume the Ca2+ level remains the same (85 mg/l in my case), and all(?) the CO3 has been taken out of solution? As CO2 is evolved by the reaction.
I then add calcium sulphate to bring the sulphate level up to the desired amount (250-300 mg/L) and use the calculator to tell me how much I need to add.
Why lock the sulphate chloride ratio at 4:1?

Aleman said:
What I do is to use a custom profile in Grahams calculator then enter my current water profile as the desired set a 4 to 1 sulphate to chloride ratio and then set the sulphate level to around 250-300 . . . and everything magically works out.

So what you're saying in this sentence is, Set MY CURRENT water profile in the Target Liquor range?
I'm sorry I don't quite understand.
Do you mean, Enter my current water profile in the Target Column (which is now minus CO3), and whack up the Sulphate level to 250+?
 
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