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richc

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This is a spin off thread from a discussion about the competition at the Spring Thing.

There are two organisations that judge home brewed beer, the classic British NGWBJ and the relative newcomer, the American BJCP.

I would like to hear peoples thoughts on these two organisations, their competitions, their certification programs etc.
 
unclepumble said:
Wonder if a league table with everyone ranking their 'top 3' in each category might work. Or adding an 'other brews' table where you specify your style and intention and it's an audience judgement based on that and their tastes...? (Or does this all sound suspiciously like AV?!?)

I think what we need to realise is that if you have "National Guild Of Wine and Beer Judges" Judging an event, then the event should follow their rules and style Guidelines.

Details on Here

If you want to change the way they do things then the best way is to become one of them by sitting the exam (not easy if you read the rules and regs)

Even the American Ale category at this compo isn't there! Wonder what was that judged against as not using classic C-hops (cascade/centennial/columbus) seemed to earn the term 'peculiar' for anything using citra or NZ hops....

Thing is the guidelines are SOOOO limited compared with contemporary ideas on styles which are more influenced by BJCP - where is the 'speciality' section, belgian, fruit etc.. My suggestion was that we could maybe apply a BJCP style but eschew 'judging by them' and instead go for 'judging by peers' against BJCP style guides. Maybe having a perr-judging category and idea would be a good first step towards making more people interested in judging and getting involved

unclepumble said:
If you want slightly more adventurous classes then its BJCP, Edited- AFAIAA No event in the UK has been to BJCP style or guidelines as of yet though, But I note the first exams in europe for the BJCP took place in Febuary this year, in London, so some events may be changing soon, anyone know any more?

UP

Swazi took the exam and said it was a HELL of a lot of work!!! (Like a years worth of prep, cramming and then a 3 hour exam!)

However quite a few of us are familiar with BJCP guidelines, they're free to get them on iPhone or Android and included in most brewing software etc. so it shouldn't be too hard to have the reference guides there to mark against. Either with a proper or cut down mark sheet (which might be a PITA) or a simpler AV-style 'rank top X in order' as there are times a beer just makes people go "WOW have you tried that!' which should get a peoples choice (as with the amazing fruit beer at nationals) and maybe a 'never knew that could even be done' gong (thinking of Aled's acid beer) or something that manages to make you go WOAH. It's that crowd 'wow factor' which frequently seems so evident between entrants but not really part of, nor opposed to, formal judging criteria but potentially complementing it...

Ant Hayes untimely death is a blow - thought the new fast-track getting people in and online exam looks promising: http://www.bjcp.org/docs/newexam.pdf

I think that there is a lot to be learned from the BJCPwithout losing site of existing traditions, structures and experience but not being hide-bound by them nor seeing judging by established people against told and restricted categories as the only way of doing awards and reviews. I note the Bristol compo is going to be against the BJCP and am glad of that... http://www.bristolhomebrewcompetition.org.uk/
 
Steve no judging program is going to be easy.

In my opinion though, its better to have proper qualified judges who have proven palates & knowledge, than any tom dick and harry.

That way the prize is much more credible amongst your peers.

As a bolt on a peoples choice is always a good idea, but AV style voting is always going to be difficult, if there are a shedload of entries.

It appears the Bristol homebrew competition in sept is going by BJCP style classes, therefore some of the new bjcp judges may be judging, & if BJCP Styles are going to be followed there might be more room, for more non british styles to be judged.

UP
 
Great thread, keep the thoughts rolling, we are already plotting the framework of ST2012 :thumb:
 
unclepumble said:
In my opinion though, its better to have proper qualified judges who have proven palates & knowledge, than any tom dick and harry.

That way the prize is much more credible amongst your peers.

I don't think that the audiences who are brewers and enterring in these competitions are 'any tom dick and harry' and there's good evidence that if you do put enough tom's, dick's and harry's together and get their views and average them out then it will be close to 'expert' opinion (the wikipedia concept).

As I say I don't see this as being in opposition but complement: you know like having an expert panel - as they have on the X factor ; and also the audience voting - like on Eurovision, two carfully chosen comparisons as they have produced NOTHING but pure quality in music... :party:

Like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmQ0il3fRRA (which shows the quality judges bring to proceedings)
vs this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XGMb5PakOQ (which shows how nuts you can go when you're judged by different criteria)
 
well the beers that won were the best in each category or so said my palate

obviously the wrong bottles and non gold crown caps should have eliminated a few of the competion :rofl:
 
lancsSteve said:
Even the American Ale category at this compo isn't there! Wonder what was that judged against as not using classic C-hops (cascade/centennial/columbus) seemed to earn the term 'peculiar' for anything using citra or NZ hops....

Not entirely true, my all citra APA did pretty well.

Thing is the guidelines are SOOOO limited compared with contemporary ideas on styles which are more influenced by BJCP - where is the 'speciality' section, belgian, fruit etc..

Now this I definitely agree with, with the NGWBJ categories I can enter may be 1/3 of the beers I brew, with BJCP I can enter all of them.

Swazi took the exam and said it was a HELL of a lot of work!!! (Like a years worth of prep, cramming and then a 3 hour exam!)

The written exam looks hard but the other stages in the new process for the BJCP look more feasable, if we want BJCP judges we don't necessarily need fully qualified ones to start with.

I think that there is a lot to be learned from the BJCPwithout losing site of existing traditions, structures and experience but not being hide-bound by them nor seeing judging by established people against told and restricted categories as the only way of doing awards and reviews. I note the Bristol compo is going to be against the BJCP and am glad of that... http://www.bristolhomebrewcompetition.org.uk/

I'd agree here as well, the few people I've met from the NGWBJ are great folks and mostly know what they're talking about, but, as an organisation it seems to have missed out on the internet generation of brewers. It took a while to find the CBA online but I knew nothing of the NGWBJ and the NAWB events that it judges until I actually met members.

As a side point I'm trying to get in touch with the Bolton Wine & Beer Circle and I'd suggest anyone else who fancies it tries to find their local groups (http://www.nawb.org.uk/clubs.html). Let's talk to all these other brewers out there and introduce them to the wonderful world of the internet and brewing international beers.
 
Not to mention "underfilled"

Sorry, did I mention UNDERFILLED!

I think there should be a class for a "light stout that tastes like a kit" I already have an entry!

Rob
 
Rich, The Bolton beer and wine circle is on tommorrow evening pm me if you want details
 
borischarlton said:
Not to mention "underfilled"

Sorry, did I mention UNDERFILLED!

I think there should be a class for a "light stout that tastes like a kit" I already have an entry!

Rob

Rob did someone say youre bottles were UNDERFILLED :wha:

I had the same comment on mine as well. Cant get them any fuller useing a Little Bottler.
 
Here's my take.

Style guides should only be seen as an agreement between the brewer and the judge that defines how the entry will be judged. From that perspective I think the NGBWJ falls short in comparison to the BJCP. Their categories are to vague and exclude a lot of popular styles that we home brewers enjoy making. I do however think that it is important that the UK does have it's own standards and judging program, the BJCP does have its flaws after all.
At the moment there are only a handful of BJCP judges over here and none of us even know how we did in the exam yet. I've heard that the Bristol comp is going to be judged by pro brewers, members of the NGBWJ and some of those new to the BJCP.

I agree with :ugeek: that there are plenty of capable palates among our peers but a peoples choice idea for the whole process wouldn't really be workable when you are trying to award a number of prizes across various catagories. As an entrant I want to have a good time and enjoy the beer rather than decide which is the best beer there. Structured judging ensures that every beer is given its fair attention by a somewhat sober judge.

What I'd like to see in future comps is a single peoples choice award and a speciality class. The useful thing about the speciality class is that if a certain style starts to dominate that category in popularity, it can replace a less popular category in future comps. There also need to be more people joining the NGBWJ, they need the members and I'm sure there are plenty of us that would qualify if we just registered an interest.
 
^ :clap: :clap: :clap:

My thoughts almost exactly though think there is room for a first/second/third peoples choice with ranking maybe ab style facilitated by some smarter/automated counting system (though touch screens near beers aren't going to be popular but something should be usable, sms or online polls?)

As to underfilled... Bosium got his to the brim (how?) But all commercial beers would have been negatively marked for that!
 
I got mine marked as under filled . . . . Which is odd because it was a 500ml bottle (net) and I had another bottle with exactly 500ml of water in it that I was comparing my fill against . . . Mine were fuller :wha: :wha:
 
Since there seems to be quite a bit of interest in the whole judging thing, and I've seen a lot of folks on here claim they don't really know how to "taste" beer properly, would it be worth trying to get some kind of guided tasting session going for next year and have one of the experienced judges guide us through what we're supposed to be looking for etc?

I for one would be interested in that (since I'm definitely coming to next year's!), and it could maybe lead onto say a people's choice type competition as an added extra to the judging.
 
Brewlabs used to run one . . .they came down with a flavour kit and you doctored beer and then tasted it. . . .Shame they no longer appear to do this.
 
Since there seems to be quite a bit of interest in the whole judging thing, and I've seen a lot of folks on here claim they don't really know how to "taste" beer properly, would it be worth trying to get some kind of guided tasting session going for next year and have one of the experienced judges guide us through what we're supposed to be looking for etc?

I quite like this idea. We did something similar at our homebrew club. Ant Hayes had organised a taste sensory training kit http://www.siebelinstitute.com/sensory_kit/ which was very useful. They are expensive I think but something similar if ,somewhat rudimentary, can be put together with easier to find flavours. Maybe people could also bring beers with obvious faults to share.
 
:wha: How are, brewers, going to fill all these categories at the 2011 champs? That will be a stack of first prizes!

Even BJCP categories are limited...at 2010 I entered a cherry choc porter - where would I enter that?

and the saison (that was 2nd in the belgian category) is technically too pale vs BJCP - even though saisons in belgium can be brewed that pale?

I know it's hindsight but maybe the organisers should have taken the list of entries for 2010 and broken them down vs BJCP and then categorised accordingly :?:

I'd better get brewing to fill up some of those odd categories...flanders red or belgian brown ale anybody :twisted:
 
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