Going to try out some chemistry....

HisDudeness said:

Here is my local water report:
Let the science commence!

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You are really lucky that your water company publishes alkalinity, calcium and magnesium, as well as sulphate and chloride (even though they will be base don historic numbers). Will be interested to see the results of the experiment. At 228 alkalinity you'll need to add a fair bit CRS to strip back the carbonates.. guessing 1ml per ltr for pale ales/bitter. That should make a noticeable difference for you mash efficiency.

TartanSpecial said:

You are really lucky that your water company publishes alkalinity, calcium and magnesium, as well as sulphate and chloride (even though they will be base don historic numbers). Will be interested to see the results of the experiment. At 228 alkalinity you'll need to add a fair bit CRS to strip back the carbonates.. guessing 1ml per ltr for pale ales/bitter. That should make a noticeable difference for you mash efficiency.

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Yes, I was pleased to find so much detail easily accessible on the website. Efficiency will be interesting to see the difference I generally get 70% and have never achieved over 72 despite my best attempts to refine my technique. Perhaps the water has been the limiting factor?

Sent my murphys water report sample off today. Hopefully will get it back in a week or so, then the chemical buying will begin! Whether the beer improves remains to be seen.

HisDudeness said:

Efficiency will be interesting to see the difference I generally get 70% and have never achieved over 72 despite my best attempts to refine my technique. Perhaps the water has been the limiting factor?

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Based on 228ppm alkalinity, stripping back the carbonate with 1ml CRS per litre liquor plus say...5-10 grams of calcum sulphate added to the mash should see you get to 75%+ mash efficiency I'd have thought. Might be worth buying a salifert alkalinity test kit to check the water company's alkalinity number is in the correct ball park.

Here is the recipe I plan to use for testing, a simple hoppy english pale ale adapted from GH recipe:

Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.038 SG
Estimated FG: 1.008 SG
Estimated ABV: 4.0%
Estimated Color: 8.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 25.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.84 kg Maris Otter (Crisp) (7.9 EBC) Grain 1 96.6 %
0.03 kg CaraGold (12.0 EBC) Grain 2 3.4 %
5.81 g Challenger [9.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 25.9 IBUs
0.07 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 4 -
4.35 g First Gold [7.90 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 5 0.0 IBUs
3.26 g Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 0.0 Hop 6 0.0 IBUs
0.2 pkg Nottingham (Danstar #-) [23.66 ml] Yeast 7 -

looks good. Note the 5-10grams calcium sulphate I mentioned in previous post was on basis of a 20-23ltr batch...so ~1-2grams for the mini mash.

Ok so based on the 5L batch and using the data from the water report this is what the forum calculator spits out, do these look like sensible numbers?

Hi
I found that water treatment made a significant difference to the finished beer, and wouldn't brew without it. Also have very hard water, and treat with 0.7ml CRS per litre. This is less than the site calculator recommends, but the recommended volume made the mash ph too low. I also changed the proportions of gypsum, putting less in the MT, and more in the boiler than recommended, again to benefit the mash ph. Generally gives me a ph of 5.3 (measured on a meter) and 85% efficiency, which makes me happy!
Cheers,
Chris

I wouldn't be bothering with the Epsom salts. Maybe add 1.4g gypsum to the boil to get the sulphates. Your water is mainly in need of CRS by the look of it.

Thanks both, this is something that confuses me slightly as in I can see the need for CRS to lower alkalinity but what benefit do you get from adding the other minerals when I already have a fairly high level in the water? Is this mainly for the sulphates to increase the sulphate/chloride ratio?

HisDudeness said:

Thanks both, this is something that confuses me slightly as in I can see the need for CRS to lower alkalinity but what benefit do you get from adding the other minerals when I already have a fairly high level in the water? Is this mainly for the sulphates to increase the sulphate/chloride ratio?

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Yes I think so. I was advised not to bother with Epsom as there's enough magnesium in the malt. But Epsom also provides sulphate, which you can get from gypsum, which is what breweries generally add. 1.4g doesn't seem much but it equates to about 7g in 5 gallons, which is a significant amount and will make a difference. How accurately can you weigh?

I have scales that will measure to 0.01g so that should be ok, sticking with gypsum seems sensible as other calculators seem to suggest the Mg is at a good level already.

I have very soft water and after reading stuff numerous times, I've come to the conclusion that for me it's just about increasing calcium and then balancing the sulphate and chloride in different styles. For you it's maybe about reducing carbonates and then balancing sulphates and chloride. If you select different beer styles within the water calculator, does it change the CRS quantity? What doers it do to Epsom/gypsum (sulphates) and to chloride for each style? It tells me to add gypsum/Epsom to pale styles, chloride to dark styles, and some of both to medium styles.

I also think this is a matter of personal taste, as much as about correct chemistry. Chlorides accentuate malt/sweetness, sulphates accentuate hops/bitterness. So the sulphate/chloride balance is a matter of personal taste, I think.

The other issue is mash pH, which I have never measured or worried about. Again, I have read stuff that says that the mash pH naturally gravitates into the right kind of area, in most beers at least. I do leave roiasted malts out of the mash, either altogether or for the first 30 mins or until the sparge, as I believe these can affect the pH significantly. But I will check pH at some point, out of interest, in different styles, to find out what is going on.

I'm not an expert, this is just my limited knowledge and experience. In a nutshell, if I had your water I would focus on carbonate reduction, and experiment with the sulphate/chloride balance in different beer styles, if I were you. And see what the pH is when you mash different styles, to see if this throws up any issues. But I'm aware that, as I did, you will get lots of different advice and it becomes confusing and difficult to know what to do.

clibit said:

In a nutshell, if I had your water I would focus on carbonate reduction, and experiment with the sulphate/chloride balance in different beer styles, if I were you.

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That is sensible advice.
as an ex scientist (30yrs ago) you could, for this experiment, only strip out the excess carbonates with CRS. That way you are only changing one variable (assuming mini mash other conditions are the same)....so if you get a noticeable increase in mash efficiency you know is from using CRS. Next time (assuming you use same recipe and CRS did make a difference) you could do an experiment 1) with CRS plus some gypsum and 2) CRS plus calcium chloride.
Age the 4 beers for a few weeks and to a taste panel test (preferably blind tasting where someone else set up the beers 1 -4 and you don;t know which one is which) and make tasting notes.
I assume beers 2-4 will be stronger due to assumed better mash efficiency...but as to taste???

TartanSpecial said:

That is sensible advice.
as an ex scientist (30yrs ago) you could, for this experiment, only strip out the excess carbonates with CRS. That way you are only changing one variable (assuming mini mash other conditions are the same)....so if you get a noticeable increase in mash efficiency you know is from using CRS. Next time (assuming you use same recipe and CRS did make a difference) you could do an experiment 1) with CRS plus some gypsum and 2) CRS plus calcium chloride.
Age the 4 beers for a few weeks and to a taste panel test (preferably blind tasting where someone else set up the beers 1 -4 and you don;t know which one is which) and make tasting notes.
I assume beers 2-4 will be stronger due to assumed better mash efficiency...but as to taste???

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Yes, that's what I was building up to really, a step by step approach like that. Just do carbonate reduction first.

But you would need to try the sulphate/chloride thing with different beer styles, and it can take a lot of brews! But if you think hoppy brews = sulphate and malty brews = chloride, I think that simplifies things in a practical way, probably over simplifies, but a starting point maybe.

Once you get an idea of the sulphate and chloride effects, try combinations of the two. I think the water calculator Dude is using is a good way to decide how much gypsum and chloride to use, for starters. Then look at the total gypsum, Epsom and chloride additions recommended, then divide that amount between gypsum and calcium chloride according to how much you want to emphasise hops/ bitterness versus malt/sweetness.

This is nice and easy....us suggesting all the multiple brews, but Dude has to actually do them :lol:

TartanSpecial said:

This is nice and easy....us suggesting all the multiple brews, but Dude has to actually do them :lol:

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Exactly! So I'd do a carbonate reduction brew first. Then do a pale using crystal malt with a gypsum addition. Maybe split it and do half with chloride. Do another with half and half. You'll know a lot then.

Going to try and be as scientific as possible but time constraints will come into play here! The first batch I will definitely either use CRS on its own or CRS and Gypsum to keep it relatively simple. Have had a look at the brewersfriend calculator as this gives a lot more detail and input options and this seems to suggest that the level of CRS should be a bit lower for this batch size i.e. more like 5-6ml this seems to tie in with what a previous poster said about using less.....:hmm: the worm can is truly open it seems.....

HisDudeness said:

Going to try and be as scientific as possible but time constraints will come into play here! The first batch I will definitely either use CRS on its own or CRS and Gypsum to keep it relatively simple. Have had a look at the brewersfriend calculator as this gives a lot more detail and input options and this seems to suggest that the level of CRS should be a bit lower for this batch size i.e. more like 5-6ml this seems to tie in with what a previous poster said about using less.....:hmm: the worm can is truly open it seems.....

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Dude are you Thames water? I know you're a way from London but if you are I'll happily share my murphys report.

Bit unfair on them but then I've paid for the info so no issues

Edit: I haven't actually received it yet though

try the graham wheeler calculator too for an extra datapoint.
http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html