Going to try out some chemistry....

Garethhuwwilliams said:

Dude are you Thames water? I know you're a way from London but if you are I'll happily share my murphys report.

Bit unfair on them but then I've paid for the info so no issues

Edit: I haven't actually received it yet though

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Thanks Gareth but unfortunately not my supplier is Anglian, on the plus side the information they provide is pretty comprehensive :thumb:

TartanSpecial said:

try the graham wheeler calculator too for an extra datapoint.
http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/water.html

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Thanks TS, interesting this one agrees with the forum calc for CRS additions but on the BF calc it suggests the mash PH will be too low with that much acid added. Will have to measure for myself and see what happens...

I wouldn't rely too heavily on water company data. They only update it about once a year, I believe it can vary. It will show you the kind of water you have, but the specifics can vary. In some areas the supply is always from the same source (which can still vary), in other areas the supply switches from one source to another, and can be very different.

This is true clibit. I used to work for a water company in Bristol and in some areas the water could come the mendip bore holes (limestone area) or the northern Bristol lakes. And there mineral content profile is completely different.

Ok so if I want to test alkalinity (as this will be my initial focus) what do I need to do this? Looking more closely at the water report data the alkalinity is only sampled once which bearing in mind the fairly wide range of PH values sampled 7.35 - 7.84 would indicate to me that this can be quite variable? Can the pH of the water (if I measure myself) be translated into a carbonate value?

Someone mentioned salifert before, I assume this is the correct kit?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B001EJ3DOG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

You need an alkalinity test kit.

Can't answer that last question sorry, but doubt it.

clibit said:

You need an alkalinity test kit.

Can't answer that last question sorry, but doubt it.

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No worries, I think I have answered it myself looking at some other forums and I think its a pretty conclusive NO!

Testing has begun in earnest with the calibration of my pH meter, got some deionised water from Halfords and off we go!
Measuring the tap water with the freshly calibrated meter appears to show that the pH on the water report is at least in the right ballpark (temperature adjusted its probably about 7.5) hopefully the rest of it will be of similar accuracy.
Have an alkalinity kit in the post so will be checking the carbonate levels shortly which should give me enough info to make a proper start on this.....:ugeek:

yeah , wait for the salifert kit to arrive...and don't focus too much on the water ph since its the buffering capacity you're interested in. My water has varied between 270-300ppm alkalinity (as Ca CO3) over the last couple of months ..and I do duplicate tests each time to avoid testing errors. When Murphys tested my water a year ago it was 229ppm. I'm testing it now before each brew and am keeping a record to see how it varies during the year. Adding the required CRS to fit the recent testing has improve my mash efficiencies.

My water from thames is allegedly around 284ppm so similar to you Tartan, how much crs do you add? the calculator puts mine around 11.2g IIRC

If I was getting an alkalinity of 284ppm as Ca CO3 I'd be adding 1.41ml CRS / ltr of liquor for pale ales....so for 35ltrs (my norm for 1.060 OG brews mash plus sparge) I'd be adding 49ml in total. ...quite a lot..but it has improved my mash efficiency.

As you measure mah pH after 10 minutes why actually make a batch of beer to find out what treatments do what for your mash pH?

Despite what John Palmer and others imply, I don't think their methods work for all waters type and all grist compositions, What I eventually had to do was a series of test mashes using my standard recipes so for my pale ale I made up around a couple of pounds of grist. Then made mini mashes using a cup of grist and 3 cups of water, held at 154F for 10 minutes, then took a sample of the mash cooled it to 68F and tested the pH. I repeated the test changing the water treatment slightly, until I found the sweet point for pH, then I did test batches of beer to determine the taste effect. The benefit of this was that I knew the pH would be correct, but changing things like the sulphate to chloride ratio does change the taste.

Brew_Mike said:

As you measure mah pH after 10 minutes why actually make a batch of beer to find out what treatments do what for your mash pH?

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I don't mind getting some extra beer as a result of doing the test but you make a good point and if I need to refine the treatment method this will be a much quicker way to get to the end result required, at least in terms of mash ph. Obviously the process needs to be completed to get an idea of the effect on taste etc.

Did my alkalinity test this evening and the result averaged out around 200ppm CaCO3 so pretty close to the water report, felt like I was back in a chemistry lesson swirling strange substances around to make it change colour!

let the experiment begin :smile:

Right so in light of my recent win in the Slovenian hop comp I think I will try and use some/one of those hops in this test brew, does anyone have any suggestions for what might work well in the recipe I posted earlier in the thread (its a light pale ale based on GH recipe)?

Dude, I assume you are titrating to find the ppm in the alkalinity test?

If so are you using phenolpthalien? and what else?

cheapbrew said:

Dude, I assume you are titrating to find the ppm in the alkalinity test?

If so are you using phenolpthalien? and what else?

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:wha: Ermmm... I believe it is a titration test, but as to what the chemicals are I have no idea. Why do you ask?

I ask coz I'm interested and I have phenolpthalien for titrating my veg oil for making biodiesel.

Right the experiment is happening as we speak, as per usual I have fiddled around with the recipe and changed water volumes a bit as I expect slightly higher losses on the smaller batch with my kit. Here is the recipe, I have upped the late hops and included some Liberty as I fancied trying this in an English ale. Hopefully the extra hops may make changes to the treatment more obvious....

Boil Size: 8.01 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.038 SG
Estimated Color: 9.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 28.8 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 74.2 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.82 kg Maris Otter (Crisp) (7.9 EBC) Grain 1 94.3 %
0.05 kg CaraGold (12.0 EBC) Grain 2 5.7 %
5.50 g Challenger [7.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 3 22.3 IBUs
0.07 tsp Irish Moss (Boil 10.0 mins) Fining 4 -
7.50 g Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] - Boil 5.0 Hop 5 4.0 IBUs
7.50 g Liberty [3.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 2.4 IBUs
0.2 pkg Nottingham (Danstar #-) [23.66 ml] Yeast 7 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Light Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 0.87 kg

Both batches will be treated with a 1/4 campden tab for dechlorination.

Otherwise the first batch uses the water as is from the tap.

The second batch I have decided that I will use CRS to strip out the carbonate and gypsum but I will only add the salts to the kettle, that way I can put any changes in efficiency down to CRS alone and changes in flavour to a combination of the CRS and the Gypsum.

I measured the alkalinity of the water again today and it has gone up a bit to around 228 which is back where the water report places it. Interesting to see that much variation in such a short time. Water PH was measured at 7.7 which was a big jump from 7.5 (suspect the meter may need recalibrating?).

Based on the water values the calculator on this site gives 11ml of CRS for 10L total water for a Pale Ale, this is matched by the Jimsbeerkit calculator and this value also works on the brewerfriends version (my previous issues with the values given by BF were down to me using it wrong).

I will add 1.4g Gypsum to the kettle for the second batch, this is in the rough ballpark for salts given by the HBF calc (although this does ask for Epsom salts as well) following previous advice and to keep things simple I will stick with a single compound for now. The JBK calc advises even more additions for a dry pale ale with a total closer to 3g. The BF calc says that all values are within normal brewing range with these additions and that the Sulphate to Chloride ratio is at 2:1 which should boost hop flavour.

Putting the grist info on the BF calc also gives an estimate for mash PH which comes out at 5.72 or just outside the ideal range with no treatment, with the treatment it estimates 5.4 for the mash PH. I measured PH of the untreated mash at 30 mins in and it came out at 5.9ish which is pretty high but again about 0.2 above where it should be which makes me suspect the calibration again.

All seems to be going well so far apart from mash losing temp a bit quick (I dont think my mashtun works too well with a batch this small) but as long as I do everything the same on the second batch it shouldnt have too much of an impact.

Untreated beer is just coming to the end of the boil now, will report back as I go.....