Another yeast starter/harvesting thread

Morning all

After a recent thread on here I've taken the plunge and bought a liquid yeast (Vermont ale) for the 1st time in a couple years. I used to use them when I started brewing, but switched to dried while I nailed down my techniques/processes.
I want to do it right this time, and save/harvest some of the yeast to use in later brews, so I've been scouring the forum & internet, and think I have it mainly sussed but have a few questions I hope you lot can help with:-

Does the temp of the starter matter? Would it be better in the fermentation fridge rather than on the kitchen worktop?

Would I have healthier yeast for the next brew if I overbuild the starter & save some rather than harvesting after pitching? - I like the sound of the method MyQul brought up recently of just taking a 500ml bottle of wort a day or two into fermentation.

Finally, the mrmalty yeast calculator suggests I need a 3.43 litre starter. I only have a 1L Erlenmeyer flask, and an empty plastic 2L fizzy drink bottle.
Can anyone suggest how best to step up to the starter size I need?
I was thinking - do a 1L starter in flask, split and save half for next brew, then with remainder do a 1.5L starter in the bottle (allowing some head space), chill, pour off wort and do another 1.5L starter in the bottle.

:

That starter quota seems huge? what is the gravity of the brew you're making (and batch size) they do say fresh liquid yeast you can get away with nearly half the amount which is why a lot of the liquid yeasts say you can pitch up to 1050 or 1060, because you can get away with it. I don't do it because I cook outside and I want a quick and healthy fermentation..

You could step up or do a larger starter, let it ferment out then split it into two.

Temp wise you can have it higher, I would leave it out of a fridge because you can see and shake it more. You should try and shake it often to help encourage growth. I think I read the other day try and keep it 20-24 while it ferments.

Like Cov say's that starter seems huge. If your making a beer <1.060 you only really need a 1L- 2L starter for a fresh vial of yeast. I usually make 2L starters in a 5L demijon. If you haven't got a DJ just use a 5L water bottle. You can use the water for brewing).

I'm always trying different harvesting techniques out. Overbuilding is a good method. I'd do a 2L starter and save 500ml (pitching 1.5L of course) to put in another 2L later on.

One recent method I've used is similar to overbuilding. Splitting:

1. Put the vial in 2L of wort and let it ferment out
2. Stir (not shake as you can get foam) the yeast into suspension.
3. Syphon the yeasty spent wort into 4x500ml bottles.

These 4 bottles are now new 'vials'. Just decant the spent wort off when you need one and put it into 2L of starter wort to pitch into your beer

On point 3, syphon into bottles rather than try to pour. I've tried pouring and you dont get an even distribution of yeast across the four bottles

Mcqul can I ask a question please
Once you have your 4 bottles off yeasty beasts
How would they store best, and the shelf life please

Cqr said:

Mcqul can I ask a question please
Once you have your 4 bottles off yeasty beasts
How would they store best, and the shelf life please

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Assuming its fermented out and you want to keep them for some time I would cap them.. and label it so you don't mistake it for a beer, that would be a nasty surprise.

Not sure on shelf life, some say 6 months so say up to a year in the fridge and do a 2 step starter..

Covrich said:

That starter quota seems huge? what is the gravity of the brew you're making (and batch size) they do say fresh liquid yeast you can get away with nearly half the amount which is why a lot of the liquid yeasts say you can pitch up to 1050 or 1060, because you can get away with it. I don't do it because I cook outside and I want a quick and healthy fermentation..

You could step up or do a larger starter, let it ferment out then split it into two.

Temp wise you can have it higher, I would leave it out of a fridge because you can see and shake it more. You should try and shake it often to help encourage growth. I think I read the other day try and keep it 20-24 while it ferments.

Click to expand...

Thanks.
The OG should come in at 1.051 for this 24L batch.
The yeast has a manufacturing date of 2nd March, which makes it only 52% viable according to MrMalty, so maybe this is why its suggesting a large starter???



So sort of following yours & MyQyul advice I could Make a 1L starter, save half in a bottle, then use the other half to make another 1-1.5L starter for the brew, cutting out one of my planned steps?

Cqr said:

Mcqul can I ask a question please
Once you have your 4 bottles off yeasty beasts
How would they store best, and the shelf life please

Click to expand...

Tbh, I've only just started doing this but I'll answer as best as I can from my reading.

Ideally you want to store the yeast in the fridge. But I dont intend to, due to fridge space (I already keep a mini keg in there more or less permenantly as when I finish one I put another in there and I dont wat to push things with MrsMQ ) I plan on just keeping them with my other bottles in the living room.
The viabliaty will deteriote faster of course but I plan on doing an extra step up. Say, put it into 1L starter to refresh and counter the increased deteriation in viability. Then put it into 2L to grow to pitching rates. I've cultured up yeast from my own regular HB bottles previously which have been 2-3 months old no problem.

As for shelf life weeks and months. I've even read years. Just use your own judgement (or ask on the forum) whether to just put it straight into 1x2L starter then pitch or whether it will need one or more step ups if its several weeks/months old.

dan125 said:

Thanks.
The OG should come in at 1.051 for this 24L batch.
The yeast has a manufacturing date of 2nd March, which makes it only 52% viable according to MrMalty, so maybe this is why its suggesting a large starter???



So sort of following yours & MyQyul advice I could Make a 1L starter, save half in a bottle, then use the other half to make another 1-1.5L starter for the brew, cutting out one of my planned steps?

Click to expand...

Yes. This would also counter any decreased viablity due to the march date, as your growing brand new cells. I'd make a 1.5L starter with the half just to make sure. The slight over pitch, if there is one, wont have any effect

MyQul said:

Like Cov say's that starter seems huge. If your making a beer <1.060 you only really need a 1L- 2L starter for a fresh vial of yeast. I usually make 2L starters in a 5L demijon. If you haven't got a DJ just use a 5L water bottle. You can use the water for brewing).

I'm always trying different harvesting techniques out. Overbuilding is a good method. I'd do a 2L starter and save 500ml (pitching 1.5L of course) to put in another 2L later on.

One recent method I've used is similar to overbuilding. Splitting:

1. Put the vial in 2L of wort and let it ferment out
2. Stir (not shake as you can get foam) the yeast into suspension.
3. Syphon the yeasty spent wort into 4x500ml bottles.

These 4 bottles are now new 'vials'. Just decant the spent wort off when you need one and put it into 2L of starter wort to pitch into your beer

On point 3, syphon into bottles rather than try to pour. I've tried pouring and you dont get an even distribution of yeast across the four bottles

Click to expand...

Thanks
What vessel do you use for a 2L starter? Will I get away with a nearly 2L starter in a 2L bottle if I swirl rather than shake?

dan125 said:

Thanks
What vessel do you use for a 2L starter? Will I get away with a nearly 2L starter in a 2L bottle if I swirl rather than shake?

Click to expand...

I wouldn't try a 2L starter in a 2L bottle, especially if the strain has a big krausen. . I use a 5L demijon for yeast culturing/starter, but as I mentioned earlier just buy a 5L water bottle and use that. You can use the water to make up the starters or brew with. You really need to give the starter a good shake to aerate 4 x per day. So a 5L bottleis great for this

I made a 1 liter starter in a 2l pop bottle, it works but even then it tried to escape.. I have a 5L pet demijohn which is basically a water bottle. just use one of them..

I agree with making the bigger starter.. for the sake of a little extra DME don't take a chance. you won't over pitch by doing that and whilst I admit I don;t take accurate figures of what I do I would always rather lean on the being over than being under side.. especially if you want to harvest ect..

Also Areate and aerate well, all these things and a healthy starter make yeast MUCH more viable for harvesting.. poor aeration leads to weaker yeast cells.

MyQul said:

but as I mentioned earlier just buy a 5L water bottle and use that.

Click to expand...

Sorry missed that.
I'll pick up a 5L water bottle today, and think I'll go with making 4 x 500ml bottles, thinking that I'll have 4 'vials' all from the same generation which I presume will be better than harvesting yeast from 4 successive brews?
I'm planning on pitching this in a couple of weeks, so hopefully that gives me enough time to make a 2L starter from one of the bottles.
:

Yes. Harvesting from four sucessive brews will put selective pressure on the yeast. The general advice is to pitch sucessively no more than about 6 times (people do of course though). 6x4 is 24 brews worth of yeast. You could get even more out of it if you split the last bottle 4 ways again

Aeration being the key thing here so the yeast stays in the budding stage and not in the fermenting stage, and a fairly warm temperature.... are we looking at a fish aquarium?
I've seen bio-reactors before, and apart from the shape seems about the same lifestyle for the yeasties. :)

MyQul said:

Yes. Harvesting from four sucessive brews will put selective pressure on the yeast. The general advice is to pitch sucessively no more than about 6 times (people do of course though). 6x4 is 24 brews worth of yeast. You could get even more out of it if you split the last bottle 4 ways again

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Sounds like a plan, and would be good value for the £7ish it cost.
I picked up a 5L bottle today and have one final question before I start-

If MrMalty is right & I only have 52% viability should I be doing a small refresher starter first as you suggested you'd do with your bottles or will it be ok to go straight in a 2L starter?

dan125 said:

Sounds like a plan, and would be good value for the �£7ish it cost.
I picked up a 5L bottle today and have one final question before I start-

If MrMalty is right & I only have 52% viability should I be doing a small refresher starter first as you suggested you'd do with your bottles or will it be ok to go straight in a 2L starter?

Click to expand...

Your making 24L of beer with an OG of 1.051? Yes, if it was me I'd probably make a small refesher starter 500ml-1L. Then chuck the lot (including spent starter wort) into a second step up of 2L, just to make sure.
The other way I'd do it, if it was me, as I make a lot of low OG beers (approx 1.038) I'd just put it in 2L then pitch it.

MyQul said:

Your making 24L of beer with an OG of 1.051? Yes, if it was me I'd probably make a small refesher starter 500ml-1L. Then chuck the lot (including spent starter wort) into a second step up of 2L, just to make sure.
The other way I'd do it, if it was me, as I make a lot of low OG beers (approx 1.038) I'd just put it in 2L then pitch it.

Click to expand...

So I put it in a 500ml starter last night and have been aerating furiously whenever I can, and its off and running nicely.
To continue with the tirade of questions would it be best to chuck it in the 2L starter tonight while its still active, or let it ferment right out?
I know I'll need to let it ferment out before splitting into the 4 x 500ml bottles, but wasn't sure for this building stage.

If it was me I would leave it another day at least then vigorously gyrate your current starter as I find yeast does start to settle into the dimples in bottles get it all into the mix then dump it in the bigger starter.

You probably have already increased the yeast health anyway so from this stage I am guessing you cannot go too wrong.

dan125 said:

So I put it in a 500ml starter last night and have been aerating furiously whenever I can, and its off and running nicely.
To continue with the tirade of questions would it be best to chuck it in the 2L starter tonight while its still active, or let it ferment right out?
I know I'll need to let it ferment out before splitting into the 4 x 500ml bottles, but wasn't sure for this building stage.

Click to expand...

I always let my step ups ferment out completly. If you've got time and brew day isn't impending(?), there no reason not to

MyQul said:

I always let my step ups ferment out completly. If you've got time and brew day isn't impending(?), there no reason not to

Click to expand...

That kind of leads me onto a question.. I have my SN chilled in a fridge for a week I have some DME coming next week so going to step up.. you finish off each step before you go into the next one? until after 2-3 weeks you're ready to go?

I can see myself taking my starter in a 500ml bottle to work next week to keep it shaking