2nd brew advice please

Stephenj · Jul 25, 2017

Hi all. Planning 2ND BIAB brew for next week, ordering for malt Miller on recipe made using brewers friend

2 gallon (might scale up to 3) BIAB:

2.2kg Maris otter
200g pale malt

60 mins 8g Magnum
10 mins 14g Cascade
0 MINS 24g Cascade

OG 1053
FG 1009

Was going to split into single gallon FV, maybe dry hopping with Nelson or Motueka as read they are nice citrus fruity tastes.

Main Qs: what you reckon overall? Am I overshooting doing dry hopping this early in brewing? If dry hop, can I do in primary, if so would this be at end of activity at about 10 days?

Cheers in advance.

Zephyr259 · Jul 25, 2017

I've not dry hopped yet but I don't tend to brew hoppy beers. I brewed and IPA which I intended to dry hop but the since it was split between 2 1 gal demijohns I decided it was to much hassle; the beer was great regardless. I believe you can dry hop in primary, some styles even dry hop during primary fermentation. If I was going to dry hop it'd be at about 10 days if I was planning to bottle on day 14 or so.

One other question, what's the 200g pale malt? Is this meant to be pale crystal? Using the brewer's friend calc (and assuming you've used ~65% efficiency) I get about 40 IBUs from those hops which should be nice and bitter but not overpowering. I have a pale ale using galaxy with the same IBU:OG ratio and it's tasty.

Good luck.

JapanBrew · Jul 25, 2017

I like the idea of the touch of pale malt. It'll give a little touch of color. The hops look good. I just love cascade.
Dry hopping is a personal preference. It isn't hard and hops are antiseptic so no real need to do much. Even easier if you just toss the hops straight in with no bag (better use of the hops). If you use a bag, you'll need more hops or, put something heavy in it to keep it down in the beer and attach a line to it. Every morning and night, pull on the line to kind of agitate the hops. It seems when the hops swell, the compact and the beer doesn't come in contact with the center. Have others come up with ideas for this issue?
But back to the question, Zephyr said it, but usually you dry hop four days before bottling. That gets the best use of the hops. Some say longer, you'll get a grassy taste. But I think it depends on the hops. Saaz will not taste good with a long dry hop. Tried it. Cascade seems fine over a week. It's trial and error. Go have fun playing with your hop schedule. You'll still make great beer.

foxy · Jul 25, 2017

As above 4 days is the optimum length of time, but better done in a secondary, not in with the yeast cake for maximum benefit.

Stephenj · Jul 25, 2017

Yeah it's crystal.

Cheers for advice. Think I'm trying to sprint before I can crawl, but so eager to experiment with stuff people on here are talking about.

dan125 · Jul 26, 2017

Stephenj said:
. Think I'm trying to sprint before I can crawl, but so eager to experiment with stuff people on here are talking about.

dry hopping is easy - go fo it!
Just chuck em in and wait a few days.
Use pellets though rather than leaf, especially in a small batch, so you lose less beer to absorbtion.
Unless you're planning to re-use the yeast there's no problem with dry hopping in the primary.

Stephenj · Jul 26, 2017

Due to space and kit I have, primary is ideal for me. Any ideas on quantity needed based on my recipe?

terrym · Jul 26, 2017

@Stephenj
This might help
A Newbies Guide to Dry Hopping Your Beer - The HomeBrew Forum
Any dry hop quantity is dependant upon the hop used, the style of beer, and your personal taste. One man's too little may be the next man's too much.
My rule of thumb for a dry hop before I get to know a hop is 50g to 20 -23 litres of beer, and I usually find I stay with that for the beers I brew. That said I did use 50g of Admiral once and it was way way too much for me.

Stephenj · Jul 26, 2017

Great guide terrym.

foxy · Jul 26, 2017

If you haven't got room for a secondary I take it you wouldn't have the gear to transfer, take a leaf out of Kelly Ryans book and throw in your aroma hops at flame out and steep for 30 minutes before rapidly cooling.

JapanBrew · Jul 26, 2017

Foxy, I don't know what that means. He stated he's on his second brew and was asking about dry hopping. If he hasn't already, he'll get the brew bug and if he treads lightly with it, keep his marriage while building up all the supplies he'll need. One step at a time.

foxy · Jul 27, 2017

What it means is, it is an alternative to dry hopping, I may be wrong but to dry hop over the yeast cake is bad practice, it isn't just about the yeast it's about the hops as well a lot of brewers today instead of dry hopping, is at flame out add the aroma and even flavour hops steep in the hot wort for 20 to 30 minutes before rapidly cooling.
And if I am wrong so are the likes of White, Corby,Strong, Zainasheff, Palmer and many others, just trying to point a new brewer in the right direction.But hey I am happy to not make comments if you don't agree with them.

dan125 · Jul 27, 2017

foxy said:
What it means is, it is an alternative to dry hopping, I may be wrong but to dry hop over the yeast cake is bad practice, it isn't just about the yeast it's about the hops as well a lot of brewers today instead of dry hopping, is at flame out add the aroma and even flavour hops steep in the hot wort for 20 to 30 minutes before rapidly cooling.
And if I am wrong so are the likes of White, Corby,Strong, Zainasheff, Palmer and many others, just trying to point a new brewer in the right direction.But hey I am happy to not make comments if you don't agree with them.

I've never heard that dry hopping over the yeast cake is bad - can you explain why?
Transfering will introduce oxygen into the beer though.

foxy · Jul 27, 2017

Research any of those mentioned above they all say the same thing about dry hopping over a yeast cake you will lose flavour/aroma and end up having to put more hops in to compensate, in fact Gordon Strong says he has just about given up on dry hopping. You are right that transferring to a secondary has its risks if you do it it the secondary has to be purged with CO2.
Then you face the problem of the hops containing oxygen whether it flowers or pellets, if you are going to use pellets in a secondary in a bag of spoons or marbles then that has to be purged in water to drive the air out.
I have recently gone to the introduction of hops to a finished boil and cooling rapidly at 20 to 30 minutes after being disappointed with dry hopping, here is a link to utilisation times, and the reason I mentioned Kelly Ryan is the Jaipur IPA isn't dry hopped but uses something similar to the method I have mentioned.
https://fhsteinbart.wordpress.com/2016/03/04/blinded-by-science-getting-the-most-out-of-hops/

dan125 · Jul 27, 2017

foxy said:
Research any of those mentioned above they all say the same thing about dry hopping over a yeast cake you will lose flavour/aroma and end up having to put more hops in to compensate, in fact Gordon Strong says he has just about given up on dry hopping. You are right that transferring to a secondary has its risks if you do it it the secondary has to be purged with CO2.
Then you face the problem of the hops containing oxygen whether it flowers or pellets, if you are going to use pellets in a secondary in a bag of spoons or marbles then that has to be purged in water to drive the air out.
I have recently gone to the introduction of hops to a finished boil and cooling rapidly at 20 to 30 minutes after being disappointed with dry hopping, here is a link to utilisation times, and the reason I mentioned Kelly Ryan is the Jaipur IPA isn't dry hopped but uses something similar to the method I have mentioned.
https://fhsteinbart.wordpress.com/2016/03/04/blinded-by-science-getting-the-most-out-of-hops/

I've had a google and the only thing I could find is a warning that the yeast may break down the hops & create off flavours if left in contact for a long time, or that aroma may be driven off if you dry hopping very early during active fermentation.
Zainasheff & Palmer seem to be strong advocates for not transfering as far as I can see, and in a podcast I listened too recently Zainasheff was saying how he avoided transfers altogther at Heretic - but I suppose they can draw the yeast off the bottom of SS conicals.
I transfered to 2ndry for about 65 brews before recently stopping & I usually use a combo of steeping post boil & dry hopping in hoppy beers. It cuts out a couple hours of sanitising, syphoning & cleaning and I think my beers are better for it

Pavros · Jul 27, 2017

I have always dry hopped over the yeast cake and have never had a problem. I don't recall any of the kits which come with hops (Youngs, Festival, Bulldog) advising to transfer to secondary before dry hopping.

Looking at Stephenj's recipe, you are adding 24g of hops at flameout in 2 gallons which would be equivalent to about 60g in 5 litres. This should be nice and hoppy. If I were to dry hop with this recipe, I would probably split this to 12g at flameout and 12g dry hop just to see what it is like. I would then adjust the amounts in later brews to my taste. For me, if I added dry hops to the recipe in addition to the 24g at flameout, it would probably be too hoppy. Horses for courses, I suppose as some members would probably double the 24g at flameout and also dry hop!

I see that you might split the batch and experiment with different hops. I love doing this and it also means you can experiment with different hopping rates to get something that you like to drink. You could also try some Amarillo or Mosaic hops in the future as they are nice and citrusy too

Stephenj · Jul 27, 2017

Thanks for the advice people. Foxy - totally appreciate your input and understand what you are saying about the risk factor but in my situation at present primary probs best. what will be interesting is n future when I do as you say alongside a primary dry hop, having a clear comparison.

Pavros - good shout on those hops as they seem to be 1 - cheaper, and 2 - more usable if bought in bulk.

JapanBrew - cheers for potential marriage concerns

12th anniversary this weekend, missus asking if I'll be taking tasting notes on the Scottish brews up in Edinburgh! Might have weekend off to keep her happy :lol:

dan125 · Jul 28, 2017

Brulosophy podcast #6 is all about the 2ndry debate - worth a listen

JapanBrew · Jul 28, 2017

Foxy, that's not what I was getting at and to the others, Dan is right. I was just simply stating that foxy post was jumping 2 flights of stairs rather than up a couple of steps. Maybe I miss read the nature of the post but I was just trying to bring it back to the OP question.
Adding on to the OP, go try dry hopping. The flavors are great. Next couple brews down the road try the whirlpool hops. That's what foxy is talking about. Both are wonderful, at least to my taste. But you need to find what makes your beer, yours.

foxy · Jul 30, 2017

Well if Brulosophy has done one of their usual scientific studies everyone else must be wrong.

Best advice to Stephen, if you find brewing interesting, join a club, enter comps to get your beer evaluated, ask one of the members of the club if you can help him in a brewday and remember ,'There is no such thing as a stupid question...

2nd brew advice please

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