Rice,use of,in lager

I would like some advice ,other then "don't" ,on the use of rice as an adjunct in lager-ish ,kit and adjunct (for starters) ,type brews , please ! :pray:

As mentioned previously I am attempting to create a bit of goodwill on my temporary housing front by making some fosters-ish type lager for my landlord .I have all the "-like those you buy" recipes and many others from here and elsewhere that people have been kind enough to help with but as a short term measure I have a coopers lager kit from tesco that I was planning to do a "parial" with ,using some rice to give the dryness and lack of body required by these "lite" brews (shudder).....but I dont have any immediate access to flaked rice and need to get something visibly on the go right now to calm the savage wrath of HWMBO.. :shock: ..christ ,its worse than being married,,,again ! :?

What I have access to right now is some regular white rice, some easy cook white and some powdered rice ,again white .I am however due to go the the supermarche at some point today to pick up the coopers kit so could buy something there .

Once the substance is decided upon ,how would I use it ? Would I mash it with a bit of crystal malt and add to the extract ? Cook first ? Steep in cold water ?Boil ? Or what ? And at what stage ?

If anyone has some experience ,could they share ? :pray: :pray: :pray:

we used flaked maize and flaked rice in a lager it was added to the grains in the mash tun and the beer was really tasty :thumb:

If you want to make Foster Sh*te out of your Coopers kit Just brew it and add 30% water. I will sure be as watery as the your landlord will be used to in the pub :lol: :lol:

Seriously the whole reason why breweries use it is to bulk up the fermentables cheaply, just use sugar. Rice doesn't add much if anything to the flavour just like sugar doesn't.

Instead of trying to clone the Carp that your landlord drinks why not educate him and make a decent larger probably something he has never enjoyed.

i think the maize and rice definitely added flavour we brewed same beer with and without the maize/rice and there was a noticeable difference

I've brewed with both rice and maize and thought it added something nice.

But to the OP - I use Sainsburys flaked rice - about 99p for 1/2kg pack - I just added it to the mash (but it does need the enzymes from the grain in order to convert the starch into sugars if I understand correctly.

Also, I believe maize or rice is added to give lightness as opposed to cut costs - as far as I know those adjuncts are not neccesarily cheaper than malt.

Rice is a way of diluting high nitrogen 6 row malts. It can obviously also dilute flavour too, so handy for delicately flavoured lagers. Unlike popular myth, it's not to add cheap fermentables, it's no cheaper than malt but it can be used to help things along with poor brewing quality malts.

Absolutely no point at all using it in a kit. There's no sugar to ferment, it's all starch. if anything, you'll end up with a starch haze that you can't get rid of.

As with most clone recipes, think why an ingrediant was used rather than slavishly thinking that it's an integral part that must go in.

From the taste of the lager kit I did all those years ago, any cheap pilsner kit should taste equally as bad as Fosters.

You can't add rice to a kit! it must be mashed first!

Indeed if you are using 'raw' rice in an all grain set up it MUST be used in a cereal mash before actually being mashed! This added complexity really makes it unsuitable for use in a partial mash . . . especially for what it actually adds to a beer (It is a nitrogen and flavour dilutant) . . . If you really insist on going down this route flaked rice is available in the 'ethnic' aisle of most supermarkets . . mash 500g of flaked rice with 500g of pale malt in 2.5L of water for 60 minutes at 64C . . drain . . . add another 2L of water . . . Drain . . . make the kit up with what you have extracted.

Alternatively make the kit up with 1Kg of table sugar instead of malt extract

Aleman said:

You can't add rice to a kit! it must be mashed first!

Indeed if you are using 'raw' rice in an all grain set up it MUST be used in a cereal mash before actually being mashed! This added complexity really makes it unsuitable for use in a partial mash . . . especially for what it actually adds to a beer (It is a nitrogen and flavour dilutant) . . . If you really insist on going down this route flaked rice is available in the 'ethnic' aisle of most supermarkets . . mash 500g of flaked rice with 500g of pale malt in 2.5L of water for 60 minutes at 64C . . drain . . . add another 2L of water . . . Drain . . . make the kit up with what you have extracted.

Alternatively make the kit up with 1Kg of table sugar instead of malt extract

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If you're already mashing something in your recipe, you can use Tilda rice - cook it to packet instructions and chuck it in with the regular mash. Rice hulls come recommended to de-clog it.

Thanks for all the replies ,some interesting stuff. Perhaps ,from some of the responses I should have been a little less flippant and a little more clear .I am all to aware that I cannot throw a handful of rice into a kit. However ,there are strong precedents for using a kit ,that is ,a tin of hop flavoured malt extract ,as the basis for a brew ,the late D Lines being the thin end of a thick wedge.

GA, if you would care to tell an 18 stone career navy man who did time with the Shakey Boats in the malayan emergency and has drunk everything ,from brasso up ,all over the world what he prefers ,well ,you are a braver man than me !

JamesB ,you appear to have a bit of a bee in your bonnet....this "clone" and "slavish" business ,well ,it smacks of ill will . I have no interest in slavishly cloning anything ,I am simply trying to make a nice gesture to a friend .Myself ,I see no harm in trying to re create elements of a beer that one finds pleasing .One can ,in my opinion at least ,become all too serious about small matters in life .James ,I thank you for your input and detailed knowledge ,I hope you do not find my response as displeasing as you evidently found my OP. Please allow me to apologise for any offence caused . :)

Aleman : thank you for the detailed explaination and instruction - exactly what I was asking for

Mark ,Eric ,and as usual Rob ,thanks for the input - all good stuff . Good forum .

I think most people will agree with me that the main reason why we all took up home brewing is in actual fact to brew beer better than what you get served in a pub, how beer used to be. I find it hard to understand why someone would want to make a carp kit even worse.

However I understand that this brew is obviously for someone who perhaps hasn't been exposed to the finer points of decent pint, perhaps the brasso may have something to do with it.

shocker said:

I am simply trying to make a nice gesture to a friend

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If that is a nice gesture to a friend then I would hate to see what you would serve someone held in less esteam.

Yes ,GA ,thank you for understanding....I fear the Brasso may have taken its toll .However many long hours have been spent discussing the nature of the water in various cities around the world and how they affect the finer points of the local brews .Sadly it seems the fellow in question really does have an undertanding of what goes into a good beer and why but still insists that his preferred way of consumption is to tip vile yellow factory juice down his neck as fast as possible at a rate of around 5 pints per 20 minutes .I timed him . I have tried to persuade him that a more subtle approach may be more satisfying but he insists that this is how he like it and he cant be doing with "fiddling around with a cupful for half an hour"....I suggested meths and condensed milk -he said he didnt like the condensed milk .I suggested paint .He suggested twisting my head off.

AS a compromise ,since he is so knowledgeable about the beers of europe ,Germany in particular (where he lived and worked for many years after twisting peoples heads off for a living) as my signature suggests ,I have got him to agree to try a Kolsch as a half way point....after he has had his lager which he must have to prove to him that I can make something (to his mind at least) drinkable .

After that I shall try to tempt him onto some of the paler ,golden ales that I shall be making for myself. The really sad thing is that he used to drink draught Bass of choice ,before versions of the lagers of the world became widely available on draught in the UK .And as far as Bass goes ,to my mind ,a well kept and drawn pint of Bass is a thing of sublime beauty .

All this leads me to three conclusions ,viz :

theres no accounting for taste
theres nowt so queer as folk (as I was told once in sheffield)
and lastly ,if you dont want your ears used as twisting-handles - dont come between a matelot and whatever it is he wants to drink ( or "dont mess with the SBS...at any age [or weight])

Funny thing - been trying to buy flaked rice , down here in cornwall . Supermarkets dont stock it even in the world food ,ethnic section .Holland&Barret dont have it . The local wholefood place dont have it and when they tried....couldnt get it . Looked it up on Tesco online , found it as Flaked Pudding Rice , tried to buy it whereupon it disappeared from the listings and could not be got up again . No luck with Asda online . Sainsburys online had it , great , but I would have to pay £6 for delivery or go to newquay to collect . The homebrew shop at Plymouth have it but its dear and thats a day out (and I will spend a fortune if I set foot in there) so thats not a good option .

I think someones trying to tell me something !

PS yes ,I know I CAN get it mailorder , but I just wanted to get some from a local shop , once I start mailordering I go overboard to "make it worthwhile for the delivery cost" :wha:

:hmm:

shocker said:

theres nowt so queer as folk (as I was told once in sheffield)

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It's reyt that.

shocker said:

if you dont want your ears used as twisting-handles - dont come between a matelot and whatever it is he wants to drink ( or "dont mess with the SBS...at any age [or weight])

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DO NOT ask this man about bootnecks.

:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Can you easily access and mash a small amount of grain? If so, google cereal mash and you can add your own normal rice :-)

Aye , thats what I shall do , rob :thumb:

RobWalker said:

Can you easily access and mash a small amount of grain? If so, google cereal mash and you can add your own normal rice :-)

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There is a good thread on Ceral Mashing Here although it is talking about using maize rather than rice. . . . Although even using a cereal mash you are only going to get the starch gelatinised not converted . . . That step happens later when the boiled cereal mash is added back to a main mash . . .So what this is saying is that you may well have to mash a lot more grain that you think!

say you are using 500g of rice . . . you would cereal mash with the rice plus 125g of lager malt (to 'thin' the cereal mash), then once the cereal mash has been boiled (gelatinises the rice starch) that gets added to a mash consisting of 500-750g of lager malt at 60C to raise it to 65-68C (you may need cold water) and mashed at 65C for 60 minutes.

An alternative, but IME less successful process when using 'large' amounts of rice, is to simply boil the rice in a lot of water and then add that to a mash of an equal volume of lager malt, This works for a simple 2-5% addition of rice, but not for anything much bigger . . .and I've used up to 20% (Via cereal mashing) at times.

Aleman, i know all too well the intricacies of converting stuff like this to an extractable method too. I would assume it wouldn't be massively difficult performing the cereal mash and then a small mash separately, 1kg of grain or so is very easy to mash without specialist kit. That said its definitely something to do some serious research on before attempting :-)
Rice syrup works too, you can get it from health stores and cooking sections.

Aleman , top notch stuff , thank you for taking the time . I have an inquisitive yet tenacious nature and tend to lose sleep worrying at questions until I fully understand "why" . Indeed one of my earliest memories is looking up at a light bulb and thinking "now how on earth does THAT work ?" .

So , my continued interest it not so much that I feel the need to immediately USE rice but more to understand how and why to use it . So , to pun badly (whats new?) , all grist to my mill .

Rob , as ever , I am glad of your continued interest and input - thanks mate

Oh , and further to the OP , the coopers went in without rice as I discovered late that their "draught" was not a lager but an Aussie bitter , the details of that appear elsewhere .

Due to the need for speed I plan another quickie short length extract lager tomorrow with only a bit of crystal and some invert sugar to make it interesting , and a couple of days on a partial mash with some diastatic extract and adjuncts yet to be decided . Both with Northern brewer bittering and Saaz aroma hops .

When all that is safely on its way and I have made a dent in the backlog of promises and old materials some proper mashing may occur !