Shed brewery build... some questions on Carbon Monoxide

The Homebrew Forum

Help Support The Homebrew Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

guyb

Regular.
Joined
May 11, 2011
Messages
414
Reaction score
2
Location
Rotherham, the land of the Mockney Chef
Ok, I did my first extract brew where I had hop additions, and I was rather enjoying myself and the aromas, unfortunately the rest of the family were gagging on the smell! :D

So, I've been relegated to the garden shed!

However, this is not all bad, as I've managed to do quite a good job of it (for such a small place):

Old 800mm kitchen unit salvaged from the old kitchen (that was in the garage as a workbench);
A piece of formica wrapped worktop (donated by my Dad);
An old shelf converted to an additional narrow workbench;
A no longer needed halogen light fitting;
A single sink (I had to buy this from Ikea £20) - got fed up of being outbid on ebay (altho I am pretty deft at napping).

I've plumbed it in (all I need to do is connect the plumbing to the hosepipe when I want water);
I've wired it in via an RCD;
Lights are working;
Sink is fitted (just need to fit the waste);
I've lined the sides of the shed where the burner will be with 40mm offcuts of oak from the wooden worktops in the new kitchen -and then I will line this with something fireproof like vermiculite fire board or Gyproc FireLine board.


I have a Large Burner from Hamilton Gas Products (8.8kw), and I was wondering about the fumes from the burner in a small shed - bearing in mind there is a window which will be open, and I'll have the door open as well. Should I fit an extractor for safe measure? The shed is approx 1200 x 2400

Obviously I can get a carbon monoxide detector, and I can get a desk fan and mount it on the ceiling to circulate the air.

I have been on the receiving end of carbon monoxide before, not of my doing (someone idiot with a portable genny), and not a pleasant experience either.
 
Hi guy, carbon monoxide is caused by incomplete combustion ie burners not burning correctly (yellow flames) or insuficient ventilation, ie lack of oxygen.
regs regarding flueless appliances ie cooker, gas ring are, room volume less than 5m3 require 100 cubic centimeters of free area of ventilation. and an openable window. rooms with an area of 5-10 m3 require 0 if door to outside with openable window. having said all that those figures are for nat gas, i know propane gas regs are different, and ventilation must be divided between high & low ventilators. not quite sure of total amount of permanent ventilation req for 8.8kw but quite substantial. i must add that i have been retired from being a registerd gas installer for seven years now and regulations change all the time so i say this in good faith,all i would say is get permanent ventilators fitted,ive seen too many accidents when people have said they wont shut windows etc untill it gets cold and draughty. good luck with the build.
johnluc

ps dont put a fan in, it can suck out the oxygen needed for combustion.
 
I brew in my garage with one of the same burners.

The only opening is the garage door so I have that open.

I do also have a cooker extractor hood over the boiler which is vented to outside to etract the steam.

johnluc said:
ps dont put a fan in, it can suck out the oxygen needed for combustion.

I'm no gas installer expert, but do understand physics.

Yes, an extracter fan will suck out oxygen, along with air and steam. However, everything it sucks out will be replaced by new air and oxygen that gets sucked in from outside.

Unless you are brewing in an airtight room you would not run out of oxygen.

Actually the air that rises around the boiler has less oxygen in it as that is hot as it has come from around the burner, so extracting this to outside along with the steam I would see as beneficial, to encourage more fresh air from outside to come into the room. As you are brewing in a shed I can't see it being very airtight, but I would have the door an wiindow open, with that burner running it will not get cold in there.
 
Runwell-Steve said:
I'm no gas installer expert, but do understand physics.

steve i think your quote above reflects your whole answer to the said topic. yes you made an observation about the extractor fan which in fact you are right,but you neglect the current gas safe regulations as i said doors can be closed and i admit ordinary sheds are not air tight but that dont stand up because advantagous ventilation will not be adequate for such a small area when doors,windows etc are closed. if you had your installation inspected it would be cut off as an immediate dangerous installation. if it was me i would fit permanent ventilators and be safe. co (carbon monoxide is odourless, tasteless and leathal)
johnluc
 
johnluc said:
. if it was me i would fit permanent ventilators and be safe

I'm in the same situation at the moment with my 16 x 7 brewery shed build. I have an extraction unit which will be fitted above my 100 litre copper. On full power it sucks out air like a hooker in a Thai brothel, so I am now wondering what measures I should take.

Although safety is no 1 priority, what are the cheaper options I should head towards. Should I be looking at pumping air into the shed considering I will be using an 8kw burner using bottled gas.
 
Hi aneray, assuming your shed is 5x2x2mtr (20 m3) you will be fine with the right amount of permanent ventilation (high & low vents) no need to pump air in. as i said i retired 7 years ago and regs change so im not sure total amount of free ventilation reqd. best bet get advice from a gas safe installer or maybe even calor gas. not trying to frighten anyone but i think it was yesterday a woman died in their tent when they turned on camping stove to keep warm.
johnluc
 
Hi all, just found some notes from a few years back, Rooms less than 5cubic mtrs 100cm2 free ventilation,with openable window. rooms 5-10 cubic mtrs no ventilation reqd if door opens direct to outside and has an openable window.
johnluc
 
Thanks for the reply johnluc.

To be on the safe side I will attatch a few open/close vents to the shed. After all the planning, building, sweat and moaning (swmbo) I have been through, I don't wan't to gas myself on the maiden brew.
 
aneray to comply with gas safety regs any ventilators fitted must be non closeable, no mesh fitted, i personaly would fit one at high level and one at low level, also if your using propane the bottle must be outside, ok to use butane bottle inside.
johnluc
 
johnluc said:
also if your using propane the bottle must be outside, ok to use butane bottle inside.

You learn something new every day.

It is propane that I will be using. There is just enough space once I move the rubbish box to make a block built housing for the bottle. Does the housing have to be ventilated.
 
aneray wrote;
It is propane that I will be using. There is just enough space once I move the rubbish box to make a block built housing for the bottle. Does the housing have to be ventilated.[/quote]

yes high & low as propane is heavier than air, any leak will puddle on the floor and build up
 
Many thanks Johnluc for your very good advice - I will Put some permament vents in my shed, both high and low.
Interesting on the propane needing to be outside, I didn't know that either, I will drill a hole in the shed to put the hose through and have a housing - or an upturned flexibucket to protect it from the weather.

I picked up a fire extinguisher - cheapest I found was an ABC type from Kidde for £14 (cheaper than Screwfix by about £5) - we are off camping, so it has a dual purpose :D

I also picked up two limestone 400x400 paving slabs, half the thickness of normal slabs - this should do the job of the fire cladding (well I hope it will) £2.50 each

Been an interesting thread this one! :thumb:
 
didnt want to scaremonger for anyone who brews in a shed using gas but have seen posts where people are building sheds to a high standard ie insulation,double glazing etc so some sheds can be quite draught proof, have seen effects of co poisoning,it dont always kill immediately can take months with symtons like flu, nausea,headaches dizziness etc,not pleasant, so after spending 43 years in the gas industry always treat gas with a lot of respect. and it dont cost a lot for a couple of vents.
johnluc
 
I deliberately stated I wasn't a gas fitter as I do not know the gas regs. I know that when I brew in my garage the garage door is open and I have good air circulation with the extracter going as well.
If the door was closed I would notice. I probably pay more attention than some people to ventilation, I'm sure we all know of people who have blocked there air vents in their house with cling film to stop the draughts.
I do also have 2 different types of CO meters in my garage as my gas central heating boiler is in there as well.

I have learnt a few things from this thread though, and one of them I will be taking action on tomorrow. I will be moving the propane cylinders to outside.
 
steve i didnt mean to offend if i did i appologise, what you are doing is probably very safe especialy if you have a large shed, i just thought as the question was asked i thought it important that people know the dangers if brewing with gas in very small sheds.
johnluc.
 
No offence taken, you are correct to point out the dangers. We all talk about where the steam is going to go, but I think we do often forget about the fumes from the burner.

It is not surprising that on the burners they state, "Only to be used outdoors".

I remember in my younger days having the Trangia going in the porch of the tent, not just to warm the water for a cup of coffee, but to try and get some heat in the tent before I prised myself from the sleeping bag. Looking back, that was probably not the best thing to be doing, especially in a very small expedition (very strong and well sealed to keep the wind out) tent.
 
johnluc said:
didnt want to scaremonger for anyone who brews in a shed using gas but have seen posts where people are building sheds to a high standard ie insulation,double glazing etc so some sheds can be quite draught proof, have seen effects of co poisoning,it dont always kill immediately can take months with symtons like flu, nausea,headaches dizziness etc,not pleasant, so after spending 43 years in the gas industry always treat gas with a lot of respect. and it dont cost a lot for a couple of vents.
johnluc

Johnluc, this is precisely why I posted the thread, as I wanted an honest opinion if my set up had any dangers, also, because of the fact I am going camping on Sunday with the wife and kids and the feature in the news about the woman who died from CO in her tent - whilst I never cook in a tent, the thought pattern translated to the brewery.

Runwell-Steve said:
I have learnt a few things from this thread though, and one of them I will be taking action on tomorrow. I will be moving the propane cylinders to outside.

I'll be doing precisely the same as well Steve :thumb:

Runwell-Steve said:
I remember in my younger days having the Trangia going in the porch of the tent, not just to warm the water for a cup of coffee, but to try and get some heat in the tent before I prised myself from the sleeping bag. Looking back, that was probably not the best thing to be doing, especially in a very small expedition (very strong and well sealed to keep the wind out) tent.

That brought a few memories back for me, as I've done exactly the same! I was looking at the Trangia's the other day in Go Outdoors, ah those were the days.

One last question: by ventilation, I assume that you mean I cut a section of the shed out, and fix these: http://www.screwfix.com/p/fixed-louvre- ... -x-3/13616 (these are the permanently open ones.

I've not insulated my shed, and it's shiplap, and there are quite a few chinks of daylight coming through - I didn't intend to insulate it etc, so I suppose this is a good thing for my small space.

Fire extinguisher was from B&Q as I forgot to add that to my earlier post - surprising to find B&Q the cheapest for a change. :D
 
guyb said:
I also picked up two limestone 400x400 paving slabs, half the thickness of normal slabs - this should do the job of the fire cladding (well I hope it will) £2.50 each

Been an interesting thread this one! :thumb:


Are they real or reconstituted lime stone? If real I wouldn't use near a burner as they may shatter as limestone is porous as it heats up the water expands and shatters the stone
 
Growler said:
guyb said:
I also picked up two limestone 400x400 paving slabs, half the thickness of normal slabs - this should do the job of the fire cladding (well I hope it will) £2.50 each

Been an interesting thread this one! :thumb:


Are they real or reconstituted lime stone? If real I wouldn't use near a burner as they may shatter as limestone is porous as it heats up the water expands and shatters the stone

Cheers Growler, they are reconstituted - so I assume they will be ok?
 

Latest posts

Back
Top