StrongBow Clone

graysalchemy said:

ScottM said:

Current homebrew is made in exactly the same way as the god awful 70s/80s boom in homebrew

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I think you will find that techniques have changed in the production of malt extracts for kits and the quality of malts has improved tremendously over the years. Kits themselves have become better with the introduction of two can no sugar kits , hop teas etc.

Also a lot more people are brewing all grain and we are able to produce much better beers than ever before and in some cases better than some micro's as we don't have economic constraints.

You can't get past the fact that commercial cider is no longer 'cider' and if it wasn't for the goverments relaxed tax on ciders and their definitions, all designed to prevent the loss of orchards and increase farm diversity in the wake of foot and mouth, that someone would be having them for trade descriptions.

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calumscott said:

ScottM said:

Lots of stuff.

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If it wasn't for the birth of the mega corps (and some environmental factors along the way, wars and the like) then none of it would have happened.

In fact, most of our social "evolution" wouldn't have happened but that's by the by.

If it wasn't for that desire for accumulation by those in charge of the big businesses then we would still be producing the way we did millenia ago. The cycle of innovation is well documentented and well understood, particularly by big business. New things are treated with suspicion, you over come the suspicion through whatever means (nowadays making it as cheap as you can and marketing the hell out of it in a way that makes you think it will make you virile and attractive to the opposite sex despite having no personality/halitosis/BO/buck teeth/whatever) to ensure that it is seen every where and makes its way into the concience of the mass market.

Magners... came from nowhere. Because it's a great product? No.

Because of clever marketing. It runs like this...

1. Take a pretty poor product and apply a trick that the lager manufacturers have been doing for ages - serve it ice cold so you can't taste it, you just get fizzy, sharp and sweet. That takes care of cost.
2. Make sure that it is the most promenent brand at the point of sale. Now this is where I have massive respect for the agency who dreamed this up, it's pure genius. When Magners was first launched it came in pint bottles only. It was mandated by magners that it would be served over a full glass of ice. It was supplied with branded pint glasses. You cannot fit a pint of liquid into a pint glass that is already full of ice. So, the branded glass and the branded bottle is taken to the table. Two brand impressions that stay there out on the shop floor for every one drink. Utter, utter genius.

Magners was just a little producer, or maybe even an obsolete dormant before that. Certainly not a "big boy" by any stretch. They effectively popped up out of nowhere - and they'll try to stay on top, and they'll invest more in new products and marketing to stay there. "Good" by their definition is how big a divvy they can pay off the back of a product NOT its quality. I'll be prepared to bet that the CEO of magners doesn't drink it. He'll be drinking a Dom Perignon...

The simple fact is, you do not have free thought, your perception of free thought is bent, pushed and pulled by any number of things, the megacorps invest Billions of pounds annually to get you to join their ranks. And it works.

It is absolutely the manufacturers that make it happen. They engineer us to accept their product. Your assertion around the non-acceptance of more traditional beers is down to those brewer's inability to compete with their expensive to produce product. They had to accept reduced margin to stay with the price of the wash lagers which left them bereft of the capital to out market them. This is agressive business, this is how it works.

Seriously, I suggest you do some background reading on the practises of megacorp brewers and food manufacturers. It's frightening.

I used to be very close to the industry BTW, working with the likes of Marstons, GK, UD et al. as well as the food shippers like 3663 and Brakes and the big chain pubs like Orchid, TCG and BRG. This is how it operates, this is how it works.

In terms though, of downmarketness among cider drinkers, that really depends on how you define cider. Having just found the ingredients for strongbow, it is actually sparkling, diluted apple wine, not cider.

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calumscott said:

My understanding of EU labelling law is that they must be in order by mass.

I notice that they have bundled the apple juice and glucose syrup together - the actual ingredient listed is "Fermented apple juice and glucose syrup" so the concept tabled at the outset that it's fermented to wine strength then watered down appears to be accurate.

So you ferment your apple juice + glucose (I guess brewers dextrose would be just fine) to silly %, kill the fermentation (pot metabisulphite) and filter out all trace of yeast. Add water to get your desired ABV and acids for bite, bung in sugar to make it sweet and paletable then force carb in a corny keg.

I guess a vinbrite would do for the filtering?

In terms of the percentages, you should be able to work it out from a carton of juice? The nutritional info would give you the total sugars, then just work out the sugar to add to get your 12% and go from there.

:rofl: f**k it! I will if you will? Bottle swap at the end? :rofl:

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ScottM said:

That doesn't make it ratpiss though, it just makes it different.

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Hawks said:

They are in effect not ciders any more but "glucose wines".

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ScottM said:

calumscott said:

Nope. Best read it again. Oh, and I managed to survive my youth in that demographic without any trips to prison. I've had more than my fair share of Tennents (and still have a pint every time I'm back up north, just for old times sake), strongbow and bottled american bland lager in my time.

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I've read it a couple of times now and it still comes across the same way. Like a puffed out chest, the trouble with this country rant. While chucking everyone that has different tastes, preferences from yourself and people like you into the same pigeonhole.

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ScottM said:

calumscott said:

It's not about ale. It's about the quality of ale.

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Why is it about ale at all? Why can it not just be about the hobby? Who determins what a quality ale is? Is it someone that's drank it for years? I've never been an ale drinker and I couldn't tell you a good one from a bad one if I was swimming in it. If you sat down 10 different pints of ale I could taste each one and tell you which one I thought tasted the best.

Is that not what making homebrew is about? Getting help with recipes, making things to your taste and sharing your experiences/findings/recipes/anecdotes?

That's what I think it should be about but unfortunately some see not toeing that age old line as an affront to the art of homebrewing.

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ScottM said:

calumscott said:

It's not about the older generation pub values... oh wait... It absolutely IS about the older generation pub values. About the socialisation of drinking, about the community, about the fun. It's about the beer itself, not the alcohol that's in it. Be that a bitter, porter, stout, lager, wheat, pale or whatever.

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That sounds much more to do with reminiscing than anything else to be honest. Times have changed a lot in the last couple of decades. Saying that what's going on now isn't as good because it isn't your preference is clearly objective.

I've happily bopped along with the times, perhaps that will change when I get older and I'll no longer enjoy the modern equivalent of a pub. One thing for certain is that, even though I'll say it's not my scene and I preferred things "back in the day", I'll never consider the current as wrong, just different.

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ScottM said:

calumscott said:

Tesco value cider is going to be made in exactly the same way, just with EVEN cheaper ingredients. The point of the analogy is, as I say in previous post, that there is no value to that enterprise other than being able to say "I made some cider". It'll cost about the same, it'll taste about the same, it'll take a good month before it can be drunk.

The question I was raising with the analogy is does the "I made it myself" positive outweigh the effort, risk and elapsed time negatives? I just don't think it does.

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This is very narrow minded IMO. Current homebrew is made in exactly the same way as the god awful 70s/80s boom in homebrew. Just because something is made in the same way doesn't mean that the end product is the same. A god awful cook can use the best ingredients in the world and only come up with slop, whereas a good cook can make a lovely meal from the most basic of ingredients.

Strongbow is a far cry from tesco value. The ingredients don't bother me, I couldn't care less what's in it or how it's made (within reason obviously). All I care about is that it's cold, wet, tastes nice and is refreshing..... and it is. Tesco value isn't, but it's not expected to be I guess. It's a needs must beverage.

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ScottM said:

calumscott said:

ScottM said:

Lots of stuff.

Click to expand...

If it wasn't for the birth of the mega corps (and some environmental factors along the way, wars and the like) then none of it would have happened.

In fact, most of our social "evolution" wouldn't have happened but that's by the by.

If it wasn't for that desire for accumulation by those in charge of the big businesses then we would still be producing the way we did millenia ago. The cycle of innovation is well documentented and well understood, particularly by big business. New things are treated with suspicion, you over come the suspicion through whatever means (nowadays making it as cheap as you can and marketing the hell out of it in a way that makes you think it will make you virile and attractive to the opposite sex despite having no personality/halitosis/BO/buck teeth/whatever) to ensure that it is seen every where and makes its way into the concience of the mass market.

Magners... came from nowhere. Because it's a great product? No.

Because of clever marketing. It runs like this...

1. Take a pretty poor product and apply a trick that the lager manufacturers have been doing for ages - serve it ice cold so you can't taste it, you just get fizzy, sharp and sweet. That takes care of cost.
2. Make sure that it is the most promenent brand at the point of sale. Now this is where I have massive respect for the agency who dreamed this up, it's pure genius. When Magners was first launched it came in pint bottles only. It was mandated by magners that it would be served over a full glass of ice. It was supplied with branded pint glasses. You cannot fit a pint of liquid into a pint glass that is already full of ice. So, the branded glass and the branded bottle is taken to the table. Two brand impressions that stay there out on the shop floor for every one drink. Utter, utter genius.

Magners was just a little producer, or maybe even an obsolete dormant before that. Certainly not a "big boy" by any stretch. They effectively popped up out of nowhere - and they'll try to stay on top, and they'll invest more in new products and marketing to stay there. "Good" by their definition is how big a divvy they can pay off the back of a product NOT its quality. I'll be prepared to bet that the CEO of magners doesn't drink it. He'll be drinking a Dom Perignon...

The simple fact is, you do not have free thought, your perception of free thought is bent, pushed and pulled by any number of things, the megacorps invest Billions of pounds annually to get you to join their ranks. And it works.

It is absolutely the manufacturers that make it happen. They engineer us to accept their product. Your assertion around the non-acceptance of more traditional beers is down to those brewer's inability to compete with their expensive to produce product. They had to accept reduced margin to stay with the price of the wash lagers which left them bereft of the capital to out market them. This is agressive business, this is how it works.

Seriously, I suggest you do some background reading on the practises of megacorp brewers and food manufacturers. It's frightening.

I used to be very close to the industry BTW, working with the likes of Marstons, GK, UD et al. as well as the food shippers like 3663 and Brakes and the big chain pubs like Orchid, TCG and BRG. This is how it operates, this is how it works.

In terms though, of downmarketness among cider drinkers, that really depends on how you define cider. Having just found the ingredients for strongbow, it is actually sparkling, diluted apple wine, not cider.

Click to expand...

Totally disagree with you on all of that.

The megacorps came about because of the modern wants of the consumers. They don't get to that size through advertising.

Magners - The advert is clever in getting you to try the product, telling you how it's made and selling it as a natural wonder doesn't make any odds if when you put the stuff in your mouth it's rank. It isn't, it's sweet and very easy to drink (for the most part). If I wasn't used to the more hardened drinks then I would probably love the stuff. Also, I believe it came from Gaymers or Bulmers or something like that, it's one of the big companies that opened up a new branch in Ireland but the name was already taken (I was told this but I didn't find anything to the contrary) so they changed it to magners and it took off big style over there.

Downmarket simply means cheaper alternative. It doesn't refer to how it's made. I understand that it isn't a traditional cider, but it isn't marketed as such. TBH I'm not that enamoured with traditional flat scrumpy ciders. I much prefer an interim choice.

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scott78 said:

as my first post has been quoted a few time i thought i better reply, my post indeed says make a 12-14% brew. it then says to dilute it down to the required ABV. As my post was only 2.5 lines long i guess some people chose to ignor this part.

let people make what they want, how they want.

for info this is where my info was found

http://www.cider.org.uk/juicecontent.htm

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calumscott said:

Then I'd better explain that it's not about you or your preferences and whether you are better or worse a person for them, it is a rail against the megacorps who have engineered society to believe that they are getting a better product when in truth you get a cheaper, quicker turnaround, processed in a megafactory product designed to be effective rather than interesting/special/challenging/unique.

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calumscott said:

The ale was a metaphor for ale, beer, stout, cider, wine, or whatever. The hobby is about the quality of <insert drink here>. Why would I want to invest time, effort and money making something that I'd be better off sticking on my weekly tesco's order is the point?

To make that investment in time there has to be a payback, the satisfaction of making something WAY better than I could stick on my tesco order is a large part of that. The learning about how artisan drink is made, and undertanding, and trying techniques and building something special is what its about.

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calumscott said:

In which case that must lie as a point of absolute disagreement. There is, IMO, a huge amount wrong with society, attitudes and behaviour. A significant part of that can be attributed to the mass market business model of disposability, price over quality and consumerism.

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calumscott said:

As to homebrew in the eighties, malt extraction is better, additional malts are more readily available replacing the table sugar used widely back then, processing, hop isomerisation and a whole raft of things have produced a better base from which to kit brew. Also the birth of this here internetty thing has allowed the proliferation of the little speciallists like Rob the Malt Miller who can keep his costs low and access the whole of the UK brewing market online bringing us fresh vac-packed hops and loads of other stuff to make our brews better.

The process by which something is made and the quality of the ingredients therein are the limiting factors to the quality of the output. The old addage of "Ye kannae make a silk purse oot o' a soo's ear" rings true.

As I said, the tesco process will be the same, the ingredients probably of even lower quality. A different process (like one where the apples are picked and squashed and fermented there and then) will have a different maximum quality threshold.

I, and a great many others who stop to think about where food comes from, believe that the less fiddling around you do to an ingredient the better then end result is likely to be. You'll already have seen my musings on one Vs two can beer kits, the logic is pretty simple.

Anyway, if someone is determined to clone strongbow that's their lookout, I still maintain that for such a product the cost and effort in production (especially now that you would need a £20 vinbrite, a corny keg and gas on top of the ingredients) makes it a pretty futile task...

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ScottM said:

I don't see why you would need all of those ingredients. Surely to clone a taste you don't need to fully clone the process?

2 bottles of Suma apple juice concentrate.
650g of sugar
yeast nutrient
tannin

Add all ingredients to a DJ, top up with water, give a good mix then add yeast. Ferment out till completely dry. Once done rack into secondary with potassium sorbate and allow to clear for a few weeks. Buy 10L of fizzy water from asda (17p per 2L) and pour half of each bottle down the drain. Syphon from DJ into each bottle, up to the shoulder (approx 1L each). If you want it sweet then add sugar to taste.

Job done.

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calumscott said:

ScottM said:

I don't see why you would need all of those ingredients. Surely to clone a taste you don't need to fully clone the process?

2 bottles of Suma apple juice concentrate.
650g of sugar
yeast nutrient
tannin

Add all ingredients to a DJ, top up with water, give a good mix then add yeast. Ferment out till completely dry. Once done rack into secondary with potassium sorbate and allow to clear for a few weeks. Buy 10L of fizzy water from asda (17p per 2L) and pour half of each bottle down the drain. Syphon from DJ into each bottle, up to the shoulder (approx 1L each). If you want it sweet then add sugar to taste.

Job done.

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I'll hand it to you. Not many people can render me speachless.

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ScottM said:

calumscott said:

ScottM said:

I don't see why you would need all of those ingredients. Surely to clone a taste you don't need to fully clone the process?

2 bottles of Suma apple juice concentrate.
650g of sugar
yeast nutrient
tannin

Add all ingredients to a DJ, top up with water, give a good mix then add yeast. Ferment out till completely dry. Once done rack into secondary with potassium sorbate and allow to clear for a few weeks. Buy 10L of fizzy water from asda (17p per 2L) and pour half of each bottle down the drain. Syphon from DJ into each bottle, up to the shoulder (approx 1L each). If you want it sweet then add sugar to taste.

Job done.

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I'll hand it to you. Not many people can render me speachless.

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Sounds lovely eh

I'll get a batch going next to my Irn Bru

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graysalchemy said:

Adding fizzy bottle water isn't going to give a bottle enough pressure as you will lose most of the gas in transfere surely.

To be honest why bother going to the extreme of producing a 12% cider liquoring back loosing half the flavour which is already depleted because of the sugar leval.

Why not just ferment carton apple juice with no addatives and get a 5.5% cider. It will still taste like ***** but at least it will be a lot less bother than brewing stronger to liquor back.

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ScottM said:

It being concentrated should mean that the flavour will be reasonably strong.

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graysalchemy said:

ScottM said:

It being concentrated should mean that the flavour will be reasonably strong.

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Not if you dilute it with water.

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calumscott said:

Ah, now here's where I go paradoxical... In every corner of my brain there are neurons going "That Irn Bru thing is going to be rank!"...

...but I still think that is a valuable part of of the hobby, like the tomato wine, the cock ale...

...that is SO off piste that it's funny and the "OMG" factor outweighs the effort and cost regardless of the enjoyability of the finished product. I'm glad you're doing it because it would only be a matter of time until I went :hmm:

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Hawks said:

calumscott said:

My understanding of EU labelling law is that they must be in order by mass.

I notice that they have bundled the apple juice and glucose syrup together - the actual ingredient listed is "Fermented apple juice and glucose syrup" so the concept tabled at the outset that it's fermented to wine strength then watered down appears to be accurate.

So you ferment your apple juice + glucose (I guess brewers dextrose would be just fine) to silly %, kill the fermentation (pot metabisulphite) and filter out all trace of yeast. Add water to get your desired ABV and acids for bite, bung in sugar to make it sweet and paletable then force carb in a corny keg.

I guess a vinbrite would do for the filtering?

In terms of the percentages, you should be able to work it out from a carton of juice? The nutritional info would give you the total sugars, then just work out the sugar to add to get your 12% and go from there.

:rofl: f**k it! I will if you will? Bottle swap at the end? :rofl:

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Interesting read on it here as well as some good information on 'real' cider making


This sounds like a daft question. Cider is made from apples, surely? Well yes it is, in part. But over the last 40 years or so the UK cider industry, like the UK brewing industry, has increasingly relied on the addition of other fermentable sugar syrups to substitute for apples (or, in brewing, for malt). Originally these might have been cane or beet sugar, but nowadays they are typically glucose syrups prepared from the hydrolysis of maize or wheat starch, or fructose syrups from the hydrolysis of inulin (a fructose polysaccharide found in the roots of chicory and Jerusalem artichoke). These are normal commercial food ingredients and they're widely used across the food industry wherever cheap bulk sugars are required. Both in brewing and cidermaking they give lighter styles of product which are perceived to be more in tune with commercial needs.

These syrups are perfectly wholesome and they do not have to be declared on the beer or cider label, since alcoholic drinks above 1.2% ABV are currently exempt from food ingredient labelling. They allow the cidermaker to add enough sugar to his juice to take it up to an SG of around 1.100. After fermentation this gives a strong base cider of around 12 - 14% ABV, which is then diluted with water to drinking strength for retail sale. This process is known in the industry as "chaptalisation" (which is a complete misnomer, but that's another topic), and as a result of this the final cider may contain only 30% apple juice equivalent and sometimes significantly less. This is all quite legal and permitted by Customs and Excise Notice 162 (though for Excise Duty purposes the definition of 'cider' was changed in July 2010 to take account of juice content see HMRC link and explanatory note and revised Notice 162). Nearly all ciders you'll buy in the supermarket are made this way. They are in effect not ciders any more but "glucose wines".

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GZCider said:

Thanks, I also have seen the website by Andrew Lea, and I actually am using his book as a reference.
He mentions something about 'Chaptalised' Cider. which seems to mean that the Cider is produced with the high alcohol content that you mentioned, and then diluted. Is that right?

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