Basic HERMS Setup

Hi All,

I've been toying with the idea of moving on from kits and doing a BIAB setup recently... I'm now purchasing a 2nd hand HLT, Mash Tun and Immersion chiller from The Ginger ninja on this forum... Soo, being the nutty professor type person I am, I'm thinking of going with a HERMS setup (albeit a very basic one to begin with).

Here's what I've come up with (in it's crudest form) by adding stuff I have and a few extras to this equipment I'm purchasing. Ideas, Tips??

Basic Herms Setup

Equipment:

75L Electric HLT (digital thermostat controlled)
Insulated Mash Tun
Fermenting bin
Immersion wort chiiler
Mini mag pump
Ball valves + tubing etc

Basic Method:

1. Heat Strike Water in HLT and pump required amount to mash tun
2. Mash in
3. Add wort chiller to kettle (at mash temp) to act as HERMS coil and pump (slowly) wort from mash tun though coil and back in to mash tun and continue re-circulating until mash is complete.
4. Heat kettle to mashout temp and allow mash to reach mashout
5. Drain mash wort into fermenting bin
6. Pump sparge water from HLT (at sparge temp) into mash tun and stir for batch sparge.
7. Re-connect herms coil and re-circulate wort from mash tun back in (until clear?)
8. Drain mash tun wort to fermenting bin. (I’ve read that 2 batch sparges may be a good idea?)
9. Transfer wort from fermenting bin to empty HLT for boil
10. Complete boil and use immersion chiller to reach 20 degrees
11. Pump out to fermenting bin and pitch yeast

Cheers,
Rich

What you are suggesting should be OK in theory. In practice the challenge will be temperature control. Its a LOT easier to raise temp than to reduce it - if you overshoot the mash temp you will make a different beer as the time it takes to cool the wort again is longer than than the mash period - unless you add cold water to the kettle, but that could end up being a bit of a rollercoaster?

All in all its a bit riskier and a lot more complicated than a simple infusion mash in an insulated mash tun. I would recommend the simpler approach to start with.

Maybe save HERMS until you are using 2 PID and SSR controlled electric kettles? (thats the road I am currently on - still building though)

I am actually wondering how much of a difference a Herms setup would make and is it worth the hassle? If I heat my water to 84 Celsius and let the tun absorb 9 Celsius my strike water is usually 74 Celsius, 5Kg of grain reduces this to 66 Celsius and the tun keeps the heat for an hour no problem. Why would I want a Herms system? Does it produce noticeably better beer?

mirsultankhan said:

I am actually wondering how much of a difference a Herms setup would make and is it worth the hassle? If I heat my water to 84 Celsius and let the tun absorb 9 Celsius my strike water is usually 74 Celsius, 5Kg of grain reduces this to 66 Celsius and the tun keeps the heat for an hour no problem. Why would I want a Herms system? Does it produce noticeably better beer?

Click to expand...

Apparently it does, although I've only heard this from the people that own a HERMS set up, obviously they are
going to be positive about them.
As I understand it, the temperature control you get during the mash creates nice clean malt flavours and the correct malt profile, much the same difference a fermenting chamber has on fermentation.

TheRedDarren said:

Apparently it does, although I've only heard this from the people that own a HERMS set up, obviously they are
going to be positive about them.
As I understand it, the temperature control you get during the mash creates nice clean malt flavours and the correct malt profile, much the same difference a fermenting chamber has on fermentation.

Click to expand...

hmm isn't that interesting. I have two options to either make a wort chiller and submerge it in my HLT and circulate the wort through that. This requires a single pump or to make a counterflow wort chiller and circulate both the wort and the water from the HLT which would require two pumps. I suspect that some experimentation would be needed in order to find the correct balance.

I have a braumeister and I think being able to step your way through your mash profile for certain beer styles really helps. You ca adjust your acidification, create really malty, really crisp or somewhere between the two. Including doing a high temp mash out. I think I know where I am on this topic.

Hoddy said:

I have a braumeister and I think being able to step your way through your mash profile for certain beer styles really helps. You ca adjust your acidification, create really malty, really crisp or somewhere between the two. Including doing a high temp mash out. I think I know where I am on this topic.

Click to expand...

perhaps you can elaborate on this stepping ones way through a mash profile.

Yes, please elaborate. I need to know whether to buy a braumiester!

it is my understanding that with a grasp of water chemistry we can accomplish all of these things, malty, crisp, balanced etc and mash out temperature is not so difficult either.

https://byo.com/mead/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing

I'm guessing Hoddy is referring to something along these lines. Not sure you would be able to do it with water alchemy alone!

If you want to do a multi step mash you are mainly limited by the volume of hotter water you can add at each stage an still hit target volume and temps. You can reduce the strike water volume to some extent but this interferes with mash thickness which in turn affects the beer flavours. if you want to control mash thickness, still hit target volumes and have as many mash resists your heart (or recipe) desires you need HERMS.

Don't get me wrong, you can still make amazing beer by understanding your own setup and using infusion mashes. You still have great flexibility that way too. I am going the HERMS route for three reasons - 1) I like big shiny kit and lots of nerdy technology. 2) I plan to open a microbrewery in 2017 and the pros use HERMS. 3) I want repeatability in my brewing and HERMS leaves less to chance.

Cheers
Laurence.

ManseMasher said:

https://byo.com/mead/item/1497-the-science-of-step-mashing

I'm guessing Hoddy is referring to something along these lines. Not sure you would be able to do it with water alchemy alone!

Click to expand...

This is true. Do many people use unmodified grains these days?

ochiburi said:

If you want to do a multi step mash you are mainly limited by the volume of hotter water you can add at each stage an still hit target volume and temps. You can reduce the strike water volume to some extent but this interferes with mash thickness which in turn affects the beer flavours. if you want to control mash thickness, still hit target volumes and have as many mash resists your heart (or recipe) desires you need HERMS.

Don't get me wrong, you can still make amazing beer by understanding your own setup and using infusion mashes. You still have great flexibility that way too. I am going the HERMS route for three reasons - 1) I like big shiny kit and lots of nerdy technology. 2) I plan to open a microbrewery in 2017 and the pros use HERMS. 3) I want repeatability in my brewing and HERMS leaves less to chance.

Cheers
Laurence.

Click to expand...

Interesting. I have no plans to open a microbrewery but I do like the idea of being able to control fairly well the temperature of ones mash. Normally if one knows ones equipment you can get it dead on due to experience but having the flexibility may be important too. At this stage i don't know why step mashing is meant to be good but I shall soon remedy that. I am not drawn to shiny equipment preferring if possible to go the ghetto DIY route, there is just something about having made ones own kettle, or ones own stir plate, or ones own sparge arm that is appealing. I think that a copper coil inside an HLT with a temp controller and a DC pump could function as a Herms system adequately enough for one to control the temperature and flow rate of a mash.

Not sure about unmodified grains so much anymore, but there are plenty of recipes/styles where multi-step mashing is employed. Personally at the moment I only use single step, but when I get my hands on a machine I will be giving it a go.

ManseMasher said:

Not sure about unmodified grains so much anymore, but there are plenty of recipes/styles where multi-step mashing is employed. Personally at the moment I only use single step, but when I get my hands on a machine I will be giving it a go.

Click to expand...

I see. . . . .and these multi step mashes are deemed to be critical to the style, its very interesting. More reading is needed because there seems to be a kind of scientific consensus that by the using modern modified grain it cuts out the necessity of some of these steps for example there is no longer any need for an acid rest to reduce the ph prior to full mash. It would certainly be fun to experiment with.

mirsultankhan said:

I think that a copper coil inside an HLT with a temp controller and a DC pump could function as a Herms system adequately enough for one to control the temperature and flow rate of a mash.

Click to expand...

That is indeed a HERMS system. In terms of DIY, especially ghetto style DIY questions start to arise which you need to safely address...

How are you heating the water in the HLT? By gas? You need some way to SAFELY control the gas flow rate, safely manage ignition and closure of the gas flow etc. By electric? you need to SAFELY be able to turn the element(s) on/off automatically. To do this you need a control panel with SSR's and ideally a further level of electromechanical relay to isolate the switching controls from the large currents used to drive the elements. You also need to consider uprating the power supply which may need to exceed 13amps (or be very patient waiting for water to reach temps).

Check out "theelectricbrewery.com" which gives lots of details on what you need for a safe and complete DIY HERMS solution to properly understand all this.

mirsultankhan said:

This is true. Do many people use unmodified grains these days?

Click to expand...

I think its hard to buy unmodified malts - almost all malts are well modified these days, unless you malt your own barley. That's why single stage infusion mashes do a good job and let you make good beer these days. However you don't get the same end results from a single step infusion mash as you do from a multi step infusion mash using the same grain bill.

ochiburi said:

That is indeed a HERMS system. In terms of DIY, especially ghetto style DIY questions start to arise which you need to safely address...

How are you heating the water in the HLT? By gas? You need some way to SAFELY control the gas flow rate, safely manage ignition and closure of the gas flow etc. By electric? you need to SAFELY be able to turn the element(s) on/off automatically. To do this you need a control panel with SSR's and ideally a further level of electromechanical relay to isolate the switching controls from the large currents used to drive the elements. You also need to consider uprating the power supply which may need to exceed 13amps (or be very patient waiting for water to reach temps).

Check out "theelectricbrewery.com" which gives lots of details on what you need for a safe and complete DIY HERMS solution to properly understand all this.

Click to expand...

I don't think there are any serious safety concerns. I have two independently powered 2.2K Watt elements in my HLT. Both switched and both fused at multiple points.. I will control the temperature of the liquor by STC-1000 programmable temp controller on both elements independently. None of these elements exceed 10 amps and can heat water quickly and efficiently. No domestic circuit with the exception of an electronic shower is rated to draw more than thirty amps. If you really wanted to be super safe you could wire the whole lot through an RCD unit but its not really necessary. I have a 12v DC Shurflo pump which draws no more than 7amps and can be controlled by a very cheap DC controller. I have everything I need except a DC controller and I will start to experiment just with water first.

This sort of thing.

https://byo.com/images/stories/inside/JanFeb08/untitled-2.gif

I love my braumeister. Set the program and mash recipe that you've devised and let it do its thing, guaranteed the same temps hit every time. No stress no hassle. Leaves you to concentrate on doing the best possible in all other areas. And you can really produce different styles, even with modified grains. Believe me I've produced an overly malty beer as well as a mega dry beer by mistake while learning and developing recipes.

All I can say is I've bought a 20l version to develop recipes for my business venture in 2016 and I can't recommend it more, for a home brewer or budding pro. Great piece of kit.

ochiburi said:

I think its hard to buy unmodified malts - almost all malts are well modified these days, unless you malt your own barley. That's why single stage infusion mashes do a good job and let you make good beer these days. However you don't get the same end results from a single step infusion mash as you do from a multi step infusion mash using the same grain bill.

Click to expand...

hmmm does 'not the same results' equate to 'better results' or merely different results? Anyway rather interestingly I was watching a video of a dude raising the temperature in his tun by injecting steam and wondered what you thought about this method?