Dishwashing bottles after bleaching to rinse?

Hi everyone, this is my first post but I have homebrewed from 2003-2007 in Australia and now since I lived in London, England (since 2007) I am finally taking the hobby/art back up.
But I need your advice on this.

As we have a dishwasher here I am thinking to soak bottles in a water/thin bleach solution, then running a 65C (149 F) temperatures.
They are used Budweiser 300ml (10.14 oz) bottles with crown seal (no screw cap) as this is how they are in the UK, so they are brown bottles with a proper top.

Basically what are your views on the using of thin bleach then the dishwasher run with NO detergent.
Or the lone run of the dishwasher with no detergent and skipping the pre step of soaking them in a weak bleach solution?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
This is the first forum I have joined on brewing, even though I did brewing before.
So hello to everyone :drunk:

Btw, in the USA I forgot on my trip there but I assume the bottles are twist top like they are in Australia?
I laughed buying bud here in the UK but it was £12 for 24 bottles at ASDA (Walmart) so I basically bought the beer for it's bottle, haha

I'll let someone else answer the question about the dishwasher.

But just to say, not all bottles are twist top here in Australia. Most are, but not all.

I have used dishwasher on bottles before (I don't now) you would like you say need no detergent because that can be a head killer anyway..

What I found when cleaning bottles in the dishwasher is that they water would get in the bottles but it wasn't always consistently good.. I would worry about not washing the bleach off and causing a bad off flavour..

I am sure there will be a few who disagree but I just found it never always cleared the insides..

I just rinse the bottles out with hot water a few times after use and then sanitise with a no rinse sanitiser

I would only use bleach if the bottles are a bit grubby ie. have been left for a while without rinsing the beer dregs out so have gone a bit cruddy/mouldy.

If they are not mouldy/cruddy then a good rinse in hot/warm water, with maybe a quick scrub with a bottle brush should be enough.

If they are mouldy/cruddy then I would bleach, bottle brush but then rinse 2-3 times individually with water from the tap to get rid of the bleach.

Whichever cleaning method is used clearly you need to sanitise on bottling day befor popping your beer into the cleaned bottles - starsan is brilliant for sanitising bottles and everything else for that matter.

Once you drink a beer its worth rinsing the bottle out well to get rid of the sediment and any beer dregs, means you don't need to do a deep clean with bleach or whatever each time between brews.

Covrich said:

I have used dishwasher on bottles before (I don't now) you would like you say need no detergent because that can be a head killer anyway..

What I found when cleaning bottles in the dishwasher is that they water would get in the bottles but it wasn't always consistently good.. I would worry about not washing the bleach off and causing a bad off flavour..

I am sure there will be a few who disagree but I just found it never always cleared the insides..

I just rinse the bottles out with hot water a few times after use and then sanitise with a no rinse sanitiser

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That's what I do too.

i use the dishwasher all the time your method is good but rinse the bottles out with clean water before putting in the dishwasher :

joe 90 said:

i use the dishwasher all the time your method is good but rinse the bottles out with clean water before putting in the dishwasher :

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Do you use any bleach before or just put them in the dishwasher with no detergent and run a hot cycle?
I want to avoid needing to get a specialised sanitiser like Starsan if I can help it as I am not even sure it is available in the UK, and it sounds expensive, so if I (and others) can do it this way in the dishwasher without ill effects then it would be great.

Spapro said:

I would only use bleach if the bottles are a bit grubby ie. have been left for a while without rinsing the beer dregs out so have gone a bit cruddy/mouldy.

If they are not mouldy/cruddy then a good rinse in hot/warm water, with maybe a quick scrub with a bottle brush should be enough.

If they are mouldy/cruddy then I would bleach, bottle brush but then rinse 2-3 times individually with water from the tap to get rid of the bleach.

Whichever cleaning method is used clearly you need to sanitise on bottling day befor popping your beer into the cleaned bottles - starsan is brilliant for sanitising bottles and everything else for that matter.

Once you drink a beer its worth rinsing the bottle out well to get rid of the sediment and any beer dregs, means you don't need to do a deep clean with bleach or whatever each time between brews.

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I hadn't been rinsing after, but the 5 loads I did in the dishwasher so far seem to look ok, but I have not used any to bottle anything yet.
They have no remaining bits inside after the hot wash and dry cycle and I didn't pre-bleach and just stored the bottles back in their original boxes they came in.
My logic says that if after the cycle there is no crud inside at all and they went to 65c (149F) degrees, that it should be ok to bottle with... what you reckon?
I had some cruddy corona bottles with mould inside, and the dishwasher cycle totally made them clean as a whistle (on the hottest setting mind you, but I am not here to save the polar ice caps, haha).

Covrich said:

I have used dishwasher on bottles before (I don't now) you would like you say need no detergent because that can be a head killer anyway..

What I found when cleaning bottles in the dishwasher is that they water would get in the bottles but it wasn't always consistently good.. I would worry about not washing the bleach off and causing a bad off flavour..

I am sure there will be a few who disagree but I just found it never always cleared the insides..

I just rinse the bottles out with hot water a few times after use and then sanitise with a no rinse sanitiser

Click to expand...

Could I simply using the dishwasher (no detergent and no pre-bleaching of bottles) on 65C degrees (149F) do the job of sanitising?
As the drying cycle of it leaves the bottles quite hot, and I only use the bottom rack on the dishwasher per cycle (where the heating element is closest to).
I found that it seems to leave the bottles spotless even when they had some grub inside them before the cycle, and after the cycle they left no smell either (no bleach at any stage and no dishwashing detergent).

Pirate_Pete said:

I'll let someone else answer the question about the dishwasher.

But just to say, not all bottles are twist top here in Australia. Most are, but not all.

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I heard Crown Lager is now screw top, is this true?
I used to use those for homebrew when I was in Australia as they had crown seals (pre-2007 when I was in Australia still).

I'm not sure if the Crown Lager is now screw top. That was one of the few still crown tops the last I saw of them. I'm not that keen on it to be honest. I always wondered why it was one of those beers
people buy for presents or special occasions. A mate of mine had a couple of cases and he said he'd keep the empties for me. I'll let you know if he does keep them.
At the moment James Squire is still crown top. I know this because I picked a few broken ones up down the beach the other week that people had left after having a fire.

"i want to avoid needing to get a specialised sanitiser like Starsan if I can help it as I am not even sure it is available in the UK, and it sounds expensive, so if I (and others) can do it this way in the dishwasher without ill effects then it would be great."

Starsan is very easy to buy in the UK, and although it's twenty quid a bottle it will last for ages, and will work out way cheaper than using the dishwasher.

Let me get this right - you've done 5 dishwasher loads of bottles, and they are now back in their original boxes? They will need sterilising before you use them anyway. Starsan as HarrowBrewer says is available (quite widely) in the UK, and in my experience actually works out as one of the cheaper ways of sterilising, seeing as 7.5ml is enough to make up 5l of (reusable) solution.

I'm also not sure that water will get all the way up inside all the bottles in a dishwashing cycle. All my bottles get is a good rinse as soon as they've been emptied (doesn't give any sediment the opportunity to set solid), then a good squirt of Starsan before I fill them again. Never had a bad bottle doing it this way.

Dishwashing at 65°C will not sterilise the bottles, does sound like you have got them nice and clean though.

There is a small bottle of starsan available at under £10 a bottle: http://www.thehomebrewcompany.co.uk/star-san-sanitiser-8-oz-236ml-p-1355.html

This small bottle will last ages and ages, you mix 8ml with 5 litres of water and can re-use that made up solution lots of times, just keep popping it back in a 5l water bottle for re-use.

I bought a 12 quid bottle of star San a year ago, still half full. That's 12 brews, 500 bottles, and everything that goes with it. Best investment ever.

Spapro said:

Dishwashing at 65°C will not sterilise the bottles, does sound like you have got them nice and clean though.

There is a small bottle of starsan available at under ��£10 a bottle: http://www.thehomebrewcompany.co.uk/star-san-sanitiser-8-oz-236ml-p-1355.html

This small bottle will last ages and ages, you mix 8ml with 5 litres of water and can re-use that made up solution lots of times, just keep popping it back in a 5l water bottle for re-use.

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It sounds good from what I hear from everyone so far so I may go for it.
But 65 Degrees Celcius will not sterilise BUT it sanitises at that temp I am sure of it!
With clothes washing a 60 degree wash will always remove all smells as it kills over 95% of bacteria but a 50 or 40 degree wash on clothes leaves much bacteria behind.
Temp is temp regardless if we are talking homebrew or clothes washing.

I think the magic temp was 58.8 celcius or something for the threshold of most all bacteria to die at those temps.

Ideally a 90 celcius wash would be perfect to sterilise but sterilising goes beyond sanitising.
Do we really need to sterilise, and does starsan sanitise or sterilise?
I am just being devils advocate here.

Obviously though, a 40 or 50 degree wash of the bottles is a total waste of time as that's well below the temps needed to kill bacteria (considering it has to be done with no tablet/powder or rinseaid and only having the salt softener in the dishwasher).

I use starsan now but you used to used thin household bleach, diluted 4ml per litre of water. I used the immerse bottles on this solution, then I'm.read them in water to rinse them. It's no more work than loading and unloading a dishwasher, and more thorough.

steep the bottles in the bath with unscented oxi all night or thin bleach before bottling then rinse them out with clean cold water then into the dishwasher on the short cycle with no tablet in it and also remove any freshener u use when they are finished in the washer let them cool down and use them to bottle your beer straight away, do not store them and use them later :drink:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002H3UWR4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I'm not convinced that a dishwasher will get enough water up inside all of the bottles to ensure a proper rinse, to be honest. The way I deal with my bottles is to give them a really good flushing out with cold water as soon as I have poured a beer, then at bottling time these rinsed bottles get star san flushed with the rinser in the link above, drained on a bottle tree then refilled.

joe 90 said:

steep the bottles in the bath with unscented oxi all night or thin bleach before bottling then rinse them out with clean cold water then into the dishwasher on the short cycle with no tablet in it and also remove any freshener u use when they are finished in the washer let them cool down and use them to bottle your beer straight away, do not store them and use them later :drink:

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Over night in oxi clean is too long if you've got hard water. I've done this and got white residue all over the bottles. 40 mins is long enough then rinse both inside (a bottle rinser is quick and easy) and outside (I just put bottles in my bottle rack, put them in the bath and use the shower head to rinse-works very well)

Is sanitizing / sterilizing with chemicals actually necessary? I've been brewing on and off for 40 years (admittedly only with cans of extract) and now hardly ever use any steriliser. Before and after each brew I rinse out the brew vessel with about a pint of boiling water (straight from the kettle). This is done twice. If I use a keg, I do the same with that before siphoning across the beer. The siphon tube likewise just gets immersed in boiling water for a minute. Unused brew buckets and kegs always get stored in a dry place without lids on.
With bottles, I ensure that after each use they are rinsed out thoroughly with clean water (hot from the tap, then cold to dilute any residue). They are drained and stored upright in a dry place. I don't wash them again before re-bottling, the new batch goes straight in.
I can't remember having any beer go off in the last 20 years, except an occasional bottle where the cap hasn't sealed. And one kegfull where (again) it was a sealing problem not a cleanliness one. My theory (which seems to work!) is that any bacteria need water to multiply. By keeping things dry between use they can't do any harm. If you store things with lids on, there will always be some unseen water trapped and that will breed nasties. Any dust in the bucket or keg is rinsed out before use. Any dust in the bottles doesn't seem to matter. Maybe I've just been lucky :

ManseMasher said:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002H3UWR4/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I'm not convinced that a dishwasher will get enough water up inside all of the bottles to ensure a proper rinse, to be honest. The way I deal with my bottles is to give them a really good flushing out with cold water as soon as I have poured a beer, then at bottling time these rinsed bottles get star san flushed with the rinser in the link above, drained on a bottle tree then refilled.

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I do much the same. Except I pour a bit of hot water out of the kettle into the bottle after the flushing with cold water. Just to get rid of the sediment.

The only time I really cleaned my bottles in chemicals (aldi napisan) was when I first acquired them off Gumtree. After that not much.

I reckon there's a few people around like you kwilkin. I brewed on and off over 30 years and I never had anything go off.