Hoppy Talkin' Talkin' Hoppy Talk.....

Hello,

Yesterday I brewed a "Cardinal's Ale" mini-mash kit from the Design a Brew range in the UK. I also wanted some more hop aroma similar to that of UBU from the Warwicksire-based Purity brewery, so I added some Cascade hops at the end of the boil.

When testing the OG once in the FV, I was a bit concerned at the level of bitterness, so thought I'd post here to see if anyone has any thoughts / reassurance / 'oh you buffoon' type comments to make.

So, in brief, but with what I think are the key facts, this is what I did.

Heated 11l of water to 68c. Steeped the grains in a grain bag for 35mins at 67c. Removed them.

Dissolved the Breiss Light LME x 3kg and 0.5kg Breiss Light DME, and tried to bring it to the boil. I only have an electric hob, and it struggled with the size of the pan (18l with about 13l in it) so after 40mins of watching the temp struggle to get above 75c, I scooped some out in my sterilised jug and put it into an 8l stockpot and a large saucepan, where it boiled no problem on other rings on the hob. For the rest of the boil, I never managed to get the large stockpot to boil. It is a new purchase specifically for this, and I am somewhat disappointed, however I should have known and did suspect, but thought I'd give it a go anyway..... You've got to experiment, eh?

So, I did a 1 hr boil in the 8l stockpot with about 6l of wort in it, and with the hops from the kit from the start, which I assumed are for bitterness. I asked in the shop and they said they were Goldings.

I then added 30g Cascade at 15mins and another 15g at 5 mins.

When the boil finished, the majority of the wort had not reached the boil in the large stockpot, so I may have an issue with the volume of the smaller boil with all of the hops in. Attenuation...?

I then tried to cool the hoppy boiled wort in a sink with a gently running cold tap taking the heat down the overflow, but I saw no cold break. The larger pot I simply tipped into the FV and added cold water to bring the temp down to about 37c. It had managed to get up to about 98c after an hour!

Once the boiled wort was down to about 40c, which took about 20 mins in the sink, I added this into the FV, too, and topped up to 20l with cold water.

I have another concern here that the cascade hops, rather than simply adding aroma, have also added bitterness due to the slow cooling, and may have continued to change from aroma to bitterness during the cool. I also think 15 mins may have been a bit too long in the boil for aroma alone. Hindsight, eh? Having said that, this is what was suggested in the shop when I was describing what I wanted the end result to be....

So, once all this was done I had 20l in the FV (I've brewed it short, it should be 22.5l, but I wanted a bit more strength) at an OG of 1056. It was a bit warm to pitch the yeast so I've let it cool overnight to 22c and pitched this morning.

The bitterness came from when I tasted it from the hydrometer testing jar, and the hop pellet dust had pretty much all settled out by the time I tasted it, just before bedtime. Didn't mix well with the subsequent toothpaste!

So, my main thoughts are that :

1) everything is fine, time, fermentation and conditioning will do their thing and the bitterness will mellow down. I am brewing for Christmas, so this would be perfect.

2) My concerns are founded, for one or more reasons as described above, and I need to see how it turns out and if undrinkable, then tip it, or give it away as Christmas presents to unkind relatives.

All thoughts and comments welcome, please. As I said, this is the first time I've added hops to a kit to 'tweak' it, and I may have simply got it wrong.

Oh, and I now need to get hold of a gas ring to get the boil going properly in the bigger pan, or simply stop being stingy and splash out on a proper boiler!

Dog.

The additional Cascade will have added bitterness, given that it was boiled for 15 minutes. But this shouldn't be a huge amount of additional bitterness. It's early days, the beer needs to ferment and then condition. If it does taste too hoppy after a month in bottles, leave it alone for a while and it will mellow.

With extract brews you don't need to boil the extract, despite what instructions you might get. You just need to boil the hops, and add a little extract to the water. This will solve your boiling problem, and be quicker, and keep your beer lighter coloured. Boil the hops in 6 or 8 litres with 250-500g extract. Add the rest of the extract to the FV, rinse tins/bags out with hot water.

Edit. Actually, as you steeped some grains in 11 litres water, you could boil the hops in that liquid instead of adding extract.

People who make standard kits just add the extract to water in the FV. You only need to boil the grain extract, to sterilise it, and the hops. 15 mins should be enough for the grain.

Do you know the amount of bittering hops you used.
I once did a 23ltre brew with 100g of goldings and that was very butter.

Thanks for the replies. Very much appreciated words of wisdom and reassurance.

I did consider the steep grains; boil with hops; dissolve ME; ferment approach.

There is a part of me, however,that wants the process to be more involved and I am gradually working my way into to all-grain. It's just the initial cost of the equipment..... I know it works out much more cost effective in the long run, however I don't have the money now. Mind you, my Christmas list has a few things on it like ball-taps, jubilee clips and copper pipe..... And a boiler!

So, that's why I went all out with this brew with regard to the boiling. Next time I'll focus on the outcome rather than the process, until I have the appropriate kit to cope with a full boil.

Not sure on the weight of the hops going in. It wasn't marked on the packet which just said "Hops". Next time I'll weigh them.

I've been playing recently with pure kits, with no extras. I've also done a winter warmer with the addition of extra fermentables (dark muscovado, black treacle and DME, and soft dark brown sugar to prime) and spices - nutmeg, cinnamon and cloves - for a Christmas pudding beer, which is already lush. I also did an extract kit of White House honey ale from Brew UK which was also great. This is the first time though that I have used additional hops outside a recommended recipe.

I'll give it time and see what transpires. I'll update, too, in case future readers have a similar issue or are researching and would like to know the outcome.

Thanks again and keep them coming.

Dog.

I understand the desire to be more involved. But leaving the extract out of the boil doesn't simplify the process.

Why not make a partial mash beer. You've just done something very similar. All you do with partial mash is to steep grains at mash temperature, around 67C, and include base malt, like Maris otter. 1 to 2 kg base malt, plus flavour grains, like crystal, chocolate, roast barley. Then boil with hops, and add extract in the FV. I use dried extract, cos it seems better to me, and you use exactly how much you want. I have plenty of recipes. So does the internet. The results are close to AG quality, and cheaper than kits. An 11 litre boil would be ideal. Effectively you are making a half batch of AG with enough flavour grains and hops for a full batch, then using extract to make up the base malt short fall.

Re: The pan - I had the same problem. Some are designed with a convex bottom that only goes flat when it heats up.i recently found out why they are like this,I put a flat bottomed pale on the hob and it danced about, fascinating to watch

Anyway, it will actually heat better with more liquid in it as it pushes the bottom closer to the ring. One thing I never got round to testing was to only put a small amount of liquid in so it heats up and bends out and then gradually add more. Bit of a faff though. I eventually got a camping stove ring from pound stretcher. You have to use it outside though where there is good ventilation. I use mine in my brew shed and I also invested in a carbon monoxide monitor which was about six quid.
If you are thinking of re-investing in a big pan go for one with a thick bottom designed for all kinds of hobs.

Clibit, you've just helped me decide how to do my next brew. Now for a recipe hunt.

I suppose the other potential benefit of doing it that way, is that I can effectively do a half-size AG brew, too, by halving the recipe, and using a grain bag instead of a mash tun, and sparge using either the wort or fresh, hot water?

I think I'd like that approach, as I don't drink that much and a full brew is a lot to get rid of to free up bottles/space, etc., although with England vs Australia on tonight that may change for today!

Thanks again.

Dog.

Doglaner said:

Clibit, you've just helped me decide how to do my next brew. Now for a recipe hunt.

I suppose the other potential benefit of doing it that way, is that I can effectively do a half-size AG brew, too, by halving the recipe, and using a grain bag instead of a mash tun, and sparge using either the wort or fresh, hot water?

I think I'd like that approach, as I don't drink that much and a full brew is a lot to get rid of to free up bottles/space, etc., although with England vs Australia on tonight that may change for today.

Click to expand...

Absolutely. That method is explained here, just double the quantities for a 10 litre AG...

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51779

Excellent! Thanks Clibit.

I'll post a brew day topic when I do this in about 3 weeks.

Dog.

Popped into my local homebrew shop today, which was 'conveniently' in between two work appointments, and I seemed to have left about half an hour too long for the travel time. Just as contingency, you understand. The M6 / M5 combo can be tricky.

Picked up 3kilos of Maris otter pale malt, half a kilo each of crystal and chocolate, some yeast sachets and a couple of 15l FVs. Also had a good natter with the guy in the shop about a variety of things. I already have some Amarillo and Cascade hops, so am going to cobble together something from that lot and see how it comes out. I will obviously do a bit more thinking before brewing, but want to get my hands dirty and start learning more. Want to keep it all stripped back to the basics for now and add things over time to explore flavours and aromas. Beer Unplugged. Then one day turn it all the way up. To 11!

Thanks again, Clibit. Inspirational. Not just here on my thread, but on so many other where you've provided support and gentle encouragement.

Kind words, thank you.

So, it went into the FV on 2nd October, very hoppy. It's now 10 days later and after a cracking initial ferment and Krausen, it settled down.

I've just taken a gravity reading as I want to get it into a pressure barrel ASAP so that I can free up kitchen space for a SMaSH brew, and it was down to 1015. I'll check again in a couple of days.

Tasted the sample jar and chucked it down the sink as it was foul. Very bitter with an awful, bitter aftertaste. I'm not convinced it will mature to a reasonable happiness over time. We'll see.

There were also a lot of flecks in suspension which I think are the remains of the hop pellets.

Anyhow, I thought you might like an update.

Dog.

Don't give up on it! The hop particles will drop out and that will help. Conditioning will help.

Once it's reached FG put it somewhere cold to aid the dropping out of all the particles.

I agree with Clibit on this. Don't underestimate the power of conditioning. I've made some right awful beers in my time which were saved by a good long (and sometimes not so long) conditioning

I'll put it in the pressure barrel soonish then, and give it time. If it's not drinkable in 6 months, though, that will be it, and down the drain it will go.

Greg Hughes' book arrived today, too, with much to ponder.

Quick update.

Left it in the FV until today which was about two and a half weeks. Still 1014, so popped it into the king keg. Obviously drank the sample, and it is much better, even after just a few days, so things looking up. Not overly convinced yet, but much more hopeful.

So, I'll give it a few days in the house then stash it in the garage for a while and see what happens.

Right. Onward and upward. Time to plan a 10l SMaSH AG BIAB brew......

Dog.

Did a bit more fiddling with Brewers Friend last night (leave it), and the effect of leaving the hops in for an additional boil of just 20 mins on the no cool method raises the IBUs from 40 IBUs to well into the 120's of IBUs. I'm thinking that's what happened with me as the pan was so big and the sink rather small and the water from the tap not desperately cold. What I thought were going to be aroma hops turned into bittering hops.

Food for thought.

I have a client who has a plumbing supplies company. I feel a wort chiller coming on....

Right, tomorrow it's the night for a 10l Clibit special SMaSH, with Amarillo hops. (Does everyone start singing THAT song when the hear the A word...? This will only be an 8l boil, so easy to chill in the sink.

I'll post a brew days post after that.

Dog.

Ok, another taste update.

It is now 2 months since brew day, and 6 weeks since going into the pressure barrel, and I pulled off a quick half tonight to check the progress of the flavour mellowing.

Lo and behold, it was almost good, and pretty drinkable. It has mellowed a LOT.

So, thanks again for the encouragement to stick with it. Hopefully by Christmas it'll be rather nicer still.

Dog.

It will keep mellowing. Keep the faith, Dog.