Duvel clone AG

Dropped the AG numbers :).

Just glad to find time to do AG; it's not easy with 2 young kids. Tensions get a little high.

Decided some time ago to brew my favourite style, Belgian Blonde; had been following English and American Ales so far.

All went well; I've really tied down my system. I note also that what I previously thought was my mash efficiency is actually my brewhouse efficiency. I made a bit of a mess calculating my real mash efficiency this time because I measured before I added about a litre or so of the very final runnings and ended up with 89%. I still think the number will be high, but not 89%.

Today was a day of many firsts, including the style, a double mash, longer & lower temp mash, 2 yeast packs, 2 different yeasts, and still to come, first time use of candi sugar.

The recipe:
23l final volume
100% pils malt
42g Syrian Goldings 7.2%AA [60 min]
28g Saaz 3.8%AA [30 min]
2 yeast packs S-33 & T-58
Candi syrup created with 1.3kg sugar
8.4% ABV
35 EBU
Mash at 63 degrees for 90 mins.

Target 1.061 into the fermenter. Start the ferment at 17 deg and gradually increase this over 5 days and hold at 27 for 2 weeks. On day 2 of the ferment, mix in the candi syrup. Cold second ferment 3 weeks.

I read Duvel is a tough nut to crack, so will try and follow everything as close as possible this first attempt. Really looking forward to the side by side taste test.

I do like a Belgian blonde, but I've never been able to get away with Duvel. Having said that, it's maybe been around 5 years since I tried it, so maybe time to reaquaint myself with it.

iirc Duvel is one of those beers where you can harvest the yeast from the bottle. That's if your to attempt the brew again.

And I like the look of that recipe, I have Styrian Golddings and Pilsner Malt and I need Saaz for a future brew. I may just attempt that recipe in a couple of weeks.

GlentoranMark said:

iirc Duvel is one of those beers where you can harvest the yeast from the bottle. That's if your to attempt the brew again.

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Sorry, it's a bit new to me this concept... You can harvest from a shop bought bottle?

Notlaw said:

Sorry, it's a bit new to me this concept... You can harvest from a shop bought bottle?

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Many brewers use a different yeast for second fermentation in the bottle. So often you can't use the yeast from the bottle to brew your own (it's the wrong yeast). It seems Duvel use the same yeast in the bottle, so I could use it. Just that I can't be bothered :). At the mo I'm still tying down my normal brew day, so yeast culturing is interesting, but some way off for me just yet.

I read a lot about using dry yeast for a Duvel clone. This option I used is actually a well known combination in the French brewing community. They swear by it. I thought it was well worth a try.

Yes if it's bottles condition. Create s starter with some dme and add the yeast from the bottle

Whitelabs WLP570 and Wyeast 1388 are believed to be Duvel yeast.

I've harvested from Duvel bottles and am convinced it's the primary strain.

clibit said:

Whitelabs WLP570 and Wyeast 1388 are believed to be Duvel yeast.

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You could also swap for 3522 / WLP550 and end up with something very similar to La Chouffe which is an excellent beer.

It's amazing this hobby. 21 years brewing (albeit mostly kits) and I still feel like a beginner.

So this AG brought me a huge step closer to understanding why stable fermentation temps are a good thing. This is quite a "clean" beer in that there is only light malt and nearly no aroma hops. So the yeast is going to play a larger than normal part in final flavour. Although I pitched at 17 degrees, it flew out of the blocks and warmed up under its own activity. Not sure what it hit, but the airlock was blowing fast and there was a definite banana aroma. So I negotiated with the wife for one evening without house heating :). Sure enough, it slowed right down. I then had occasion to open the lid to add the candi syrup and the wife just happened to be passing. "Is THAT your beer? It smells like [baby son's] poo!". And yes, it was my beer, or the vented CO2 gasses at least. So there you have it. Top end of the range produces banana esters, bottom end produces sewer esters. Now I start to see why a fermentation fridge might need to be bumped up my to-buy list. The wife will understand now.

Belgian style yeasts really put you through your paces in terms of temperatures. I'd just got the hang of those and tried a German ale yeast a few months back and it was like being back to square one. Same thing with it getting too hot then cooling and smelling like ****. I'd got a fermenter with a thermowell and it showed me just how much fermentation temp changes once it gets going. Yeasts are so different it's good to stick with the same for a while to learn it.

Stable at 1.013 for a week now. The sample tastes quite sweet, which last week had me thinking it had more to go. But as it didn't move, I looked at expected SG (for 8.4%), and it's actually a few points past. At this FG then, it's looking about 8.7%. I have no experience of producing beer at this ABV, so I'm guessing a sweeter taste is normal.

I'm wondering if liquid yeast would have a higher AA% and would pull it down to a drier finish. I could enter that into the calculator and start with less grain & candi sugar. Just guessing really.

I did cock up the recipe a bit, probably added fewer hops than I should, so that might be one reason why it tastes sweeter than normal.

Anyway, this is going to be a killer beer whatever. It has a Duvel like taste already, which is pretty amazing for a sample, albeit sweet. Will be a good 3 months or so before I find out proper though (others in line ahead of it :grin:).

Duvel can take about 3 weeks to get down as far as it'll go, getting the heat up can help at the end. When I used it it got down to 1.010 with a beer that strength. Depends how you mashed though, I'm sure it'll be good anyway.

Well I'm quite amazed. OK, it's not spot on, but it's in a very close ball park. I think I'm just a little surprised that I can pick any beer in the world and get so close in the first attempt. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants of course.

I have a glass of Duvel and my own attempt side by side here. Mine is still a bit green, but not much; it does lack some carbonation bite, but a few days more will sort that out. Colour, very very close, mine a touch darker. Aroma, can't tell the difference. Flavour, it's in the sweetness; mine has a richer sweetness to it. A think this comes from a combination of i) dry yeast not fully finishing the job, ii) use of candi, iii) slight error led me to add fewer hops than I should have. Other than the richer sweetness, the general flavour is a match.

The bitter wort was very sweet, so I was expecting the side by side to show mine nowhere near, so I'm surprised how close it is. I think the carbonation played a big part in bringing it closer (and I have further to play with that).

I think next time I'll stick to dextrose; I can actually taste the candi toffee apple sweetness. Duvel lacks that richness; it's dryer. I might use liquid yeast some time, but the cost puts me off.

Funny that the focus on sampling has me think that both mine & Duvel have a pond water touch to them. Must be Saaz; think pond water :grin:.

Fore said:

Well I'm quite amazed. OK, it's not spot on, but it's in a very close ball park. I think I'm just a little surprised that I can pick any beer in the world and get so close in the first attempt. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants of course.

I have a glass of Duvel and my own attempt side by side here. Mine is still a bit green, but not much; it does lack some carbonation bite, but a few days more will sort than out. Colour, very very close, mine a touch darker. Aroma, can't tell the difference. Flavour, it's in the sweetness; mine has a richer sweetness to it. A think this comes from a combination of i) dry yeast not fully finishing the job, ii) use of candi, iii) slight error led me to add fewer hops than I should have. Other than the richer sweetness, the general flavour is a match.

The bitter wort was very sweet, so I was expecting the side by side to show mine nowhere near, so I'm surprised how close it is. I think the carbonation played a big part in bringing it closer (and I have further to play with that).

I think next time I'll stick to dextrose; I can actually taste the candi toffee apple sweetness. Duvel lacks that richness; it's dryer. I might use liquid yeast some time, but the cost puts me off.

Funny that the focus on sampling has me think that both mine & Duvel have a pond water touch to them. Must be Saaz; think pond water :grin:.

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Sounds like a great job

I must admit though, it is why I don't do clones anymore myself, not that what you make isn't good but I always drew reference to the original even if it was as good in a different way.

I think you're right about the yeast selection, these types do really benefit from the liquid yeast, but harvest and use that yeast at least once maybe twice and if you split the cost it becomes much cheaper over time.. (alternatively you could get the yeast grow it and split it and therefore still have a primary strain ready to go

Covrich said:

Sounds like a great job

I must admit though, it is why I don't do clones anymore myself, not that what you make isn't good but I always drew reference to the original even if it was as good in a different way.

I think you're right about the yeast selection, these types do really benefit from the liquid yeast, but harvest and use that yeast at least once maybe twice and if you split the cost it becomes much cheaper over time.. (alternatively you could get the yeast grow it and split it and therefore still have a primary strain ready to go

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Cheers :. I'm early in my AG adventure, so my attempt to match a favourite beer is partly to tie down process, and partly to edge me towards what I like. But you are right, you'll always think yours is lesser as it doesn't quite match, but who says it wouldn't outsell? In this case, I'm happy for the attempt as I pretty much know what I can improve on, so my learning was accelerated.

YeastFace said:

I've harvested from Duvel bottles and am convinced it's the primary strain.

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Agreed. I've got a Belgian IPA on at the moment using harvested yeast. It is definitely the same strain. The flavour is immediately recognisable, even with the stronger hopping I've used.

I started it at 20 and let it go up to 24.5 degrees.

I'm glad your clone has worked well. I might try a traditional Belgian style soon. I probably don't need two 6.5%+ beers in a row though.

This is without doubt the best beer I have ever produced, that's in 21 years. This could be sold commercially, there isn't a hint of homebrewness to this. I feel I have a cornie full of gold. Of course you must like the style, and Belgian blonde is right up my street. The sweetness I mentioned earlier was reduced a lot by the carbonation when it reached the right level. And in only the 10 days since first try, the flavours have rounded out. Finding time to brew is difficult for me, so a sipping beer is more productive than a session beer. This will be a mainstay of mine.

How long did you keg condition for?