Planning my first AG brew, with limited space

So, I've bottled my first extract kit beer and I'm preparing to jump in at the deep end now. I've got myself an 11l all grain kit (all the ingredients measured out for a rosehip saison). I've got myself a big grain bag and a 20l pot. I have a very small kitchen, so I've not got room for a dedicated electric boiler, and mash tun.

What I was planning on doing was heating the water to strike temperature in the pot on the hob, then adding the grain bag for mashing (wrapping the pot in blankets for insulation). The logic being that I could leave it on the hob so the residual heat from the hob could keep it warm. (If I made sure the bag was suspended above the bottom of the pot could I leave the hob on low?).

What I was then going to do is lift the grain bag and put it in a colander above the pot for sparging (with water heated in another pan), then I could boil in the same pan as I mashed in. To me that seems fairly logical, but I've not seen anyone mention an operation quite like that. The flaw I can see is that I'd be limited with being able to recirculate wort over the grains.

Would I be better turning one of my fermenting bins into a mash tun instead? I see the downsides as heat loss from tipping the hot water into it, and also not being able to keep it hot from the residual heat from the hob.

Please critique my plans! Tell me I've missed the point of some very important things! I'd rather find out now than on Saturday afternoon having messed everything up.

If you haven't already have a read of http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=581356#post581356

Your method is pretty much spot on with it - good luck.

That's a pretty standard BIAB setup. It will work perfectly

i would remove the pot from the stove and sit it on a couple of layers of corrugated cardboard for the mash if i were you, the hob will likely suck heat back out of the mash otherwise.

enjoy the brew, if something goes wrong (it happens..) shrug it off and carry on ..

You could sparge by lifting out the bag and placing it the other pot and let soak for 20 minutes. Just make sure the second stage is around 75 degrees. That way, you can turn on the heat on the first to get it up to boil. On electric hobs, it takes a lot of time for that volume of water. By the time it gets ready to boil, your sparge will be done. Pull out the bag and let it drain a bit then add that wort to the boil pot.
Just my advice. It'll cut down tons of time.

Thanks everyone!

Fil said:

i would remove the pot from the stove and sit it on a couple of layers of corrugated cardboard for the mash if i were you, the hob will likely suck heat back out of the mash otherwise.

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Interesting, I hadn't thought about that but it makes perfect sense, once the heating element has cooled below the temperature of the mash. I love how much brewing brings back dormant memories of GCSE science.

JapanBrew said:

You could sparge by lifting out the bag and placing it the other pot and let soak for 20 minutes. Just make sure the second stage is around 75 degrees. That way, you can turn on the heat on the first to get it up to boil. On electric hobs, it takes a lot of time for that volume of water. By the time it gets ready to boil, your sparge will be done. Pull out the bag and let it drain a bit then add that wort to the boil pot.
Just my advice. It'll cut down tons of time.

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Interesting, thanks. Almost like a second mashing then?

Yes but it's a kind of sparge. I forgot what it's called but it is a way to do it. Because the water is not mash temp but mash out temp causing the enzymes to stop working.

I'm planning on doing this exact method for my first AG in the next week or two. The only other tip I've heard is to squeeze the bag of grain as hard as you can when draining it.

JapanBrew said:

Yes but it's a kind of sparge. I forgot what it's called but it is a way to do it. Because the water is not mash temp but mash out temp causing the enzymes to stop working.

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It's called a dunk sparge. I do two and I just use cheapo plastic buckets I bought from the pound shop so the OP doesn't even need another big pan if he hasnt got one

MyQul said:

It's called a dunk sparge. I do two and I just use cheapo plastic buckets I bought from the pound shop so the OP doesn't even need another big pan if he hasnt got one

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Thanks! My recipe says sparge with ten litres of water, so if I was using your method I'd dunk it in five litres of the hot water for 20 minutes or so, squeeze the grain bag, tip that water into the boiling pot, then do the same with another five litres?

Sorry for the perhaps obvious questions!

sven945 said:

Thanks! My recipe says sparge with ten litres of water, so if I was using your method I'd dunk it in five litres of the hot water for 20 minutes or so, squeeze the grain bag, tip that water into the boiling pot, then do the same with another five litres?

Sorry for the perhaps obvious questions!

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Because I make a concentrated wort I do two dunk sparges to make sure I rinse all the sugars off. You can just do 1x10L sparge. I dont leave mine for 20 min either. I just agitatate it (either stir or 'jab' it with my mash paddle) for 2 mins

Be very careful about using the hob during the mash. Even a low flame can increase the heat quite a bit and i've seen people end up with mash temps above 70oC just by leaving the heat on when adding the grains. This results in a very unfermentable wort and high final gravity/low alcohol/sweet beer.

Add your grains with the heat off, stirring well. Check the temperature when everything is in and if you need to, apply a little heat to get the temp up. Stir constantly and shut off the heat a little before you reach your desired temp as it can continue to raise for a little while after.

I've found one of these really useful http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/20103016/ as you can leave it dangling in the wort as you stir and you can set an alarm at your target temp so you don't have to keep an eye on things. It's also good for bringing strike water up to temp, cooling the wort after the boil, etc.

I kinda agree with @simonh82 above, applying heat from the hob during the mash is best avoided as the heat wont penetrate the mash evenly and can cook/denature the lower grain in the mash all too readily.

where i differ form Simon is i would suggest having a full off the boil kettle and a jug of cool water on hand when you mash in so you can adjust the mash temp if necessary with adding hot n cold water, while mash consistency is important its way less important than mash temp .. the volume addition you can tweak down next brew by adjusting the strike temp

while adding V hot water to the grain will denature the grain that comes into 1st contact with it, the subsequent mix in will ensure all the grain will come into contact with active enzymes to sweeten the mash ..

fwiw with a strike temp of 71C with a preheated insulated tun i would never need more than half a kettle to adjust a 4-7kg mash. with a 67C target.

just ensure the bag is well secured over the pot lip when you start with the big spoon mixing in and try to dig grain out rather than stir, keeping an eye on the bag as you go, its very easy to pull the bag into the pot and spill grains if you stir without keeping an eye on the effect the grain motion is having on the bag also watch catching any bag seams with the spoon/paddle..

Sounds a good method like batch sparge (remash) in a bag. Doing it twice should aid efficiency.

Blankets on hobs not a good plan if I read that right!

Thanks for all the tips. Probably going to do a dunk sparge. Sounds easier.

Original plan was to do this today but we went out for lunch instead and decided not to try and rush it this afternoon.

Post pics when you start!!!

For the mash, after a few attempts you'll figure out what works best for you, but for me doing it in a 12L pot I find a strike temp of 74C usually gives a mash tempt of 65C once the grain is added. You can always top up with boiled water to bring the temp up a hit.

I also warm the oven up on min, turn it off then and stick the pot in there during the mash - keeps the temp consistent. I take it out half way through and give it a good stir, then again at the end prior to the sparge.

I love stove-top AG, being doing it a year now and don't really feel the need to buy any more kit.

JapanBrew said:

Post pics when you start!!!

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I'll try my best. Though I might not have enough hands.

darrellm said:

I also warm the oven up on min, turn it off then and stick the pot in there during the mash - keeps the temp consistent. I take it out half way through and give it a good stir, then again at the end prior to the sparge.

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That's an interesting idea. I'll consider that further along the line if my temperature drops too much.

good call on leaving it until you have time, take your time and have a tick list of stages to refer to, there is no part of the process that will spoil if you take a few more minutes here and there, checking your list off as you go, keep us posted. :thumb:

Today is the day! ("training day" at work, which was a presentation for an hour then going home. Since I'm still getting paid, does this make me a professional brewer?!)

My FV and associated bits are sitting in VWP, I heated my mashing water to 75ºC, put the grains in my bag and now it's mashing. The temperature shot up once it reached about 60ºC so I was unprepared. It went up to about 80ºC and given how long it took to cool, I'm less worried about heat loss during the mash than I once was! I took some advice and have got it sitting on a few layers of cardboard (not getting round to taking things to the recycling does has its advantages).

I'm about to heat up my sparging water (I'm going to sparge in the bag in a colander above the boiling pot. The dunk sparge seems like a great idea to save time, but I think given how much reading I've done about the "traditional" method, doing it this way seems a bit more reassuring. I realise that seems very illogical!).

I'm going to cool in the sink (sadly I have no ice because my freezer is tiny, but I'm going to keep replacing the water in the sink as it cools. I think a coil might be a worthwhile investment if this goes well). Then transfer to my FV later on. I'm thinking tipping would be the best plan? Sadly no photos due to a lack of spare limbs!

I'll update later.