Boiler Automation Electrical Advice Required

I have Burco Cygnet and I am trying to automate the mash part of the process, I have ordered a MH1230A Temperature Controllers to regulate the temperature, the problem is the boiler switches on but before the MH1230A switches it off (delay in the temp prob get the reading) the boiler then over shoots the desires temperature.

Right to what I think could be a solution to this, would be a oscillating switch say on for 30 seconds then off for 30 seconds.

First question does such a switch actually exist & what is it called if it does, I have had a quick search of the internet but not thrown anything up

Second question if the above is something I have dreamt up can anybody offer any alternative solutions?

Have you looked at the Inkbird temperature controllers? I have used a 308 to control the temperature of a recirculating mash.

The ACE boiler I use has a 1600w heater which produces a small overshoot, but I'm thinking of putting a diode in the circuit which will halve the power of the heating element.

donchiquon said:

Have you looked at the Inkbird temperature controllers? I have used a 308 to control the temperature of a recirculating mash.

The ACE boiler I use has a 1600w heater which produces a small overshoot, but I'm thinking of putting a diode in the circuit which will halve the power of the heating element.

Click to expand...

The Inkbirds won't handle to 2.4kw element.

Mmmm, interesting idea, I wonder if I could wire a 2 way switch with resistor in one of the ways to make the element run at percentage of the actual 2.4kw, are there any electricians out there who could advise on such & would running the element at a reduced wattage cause any damage?

Images of the element and wiring.

> can anybody offer any alternative solutions?

Not controller wise but maintaining 'consistent' mash temps...

After todays brew in my Buffalo, I'm delighted with the results of an insulation jacket I made. Two layers of that tinfoil coated bubble wrap from Amazon, customised to be an exact fit. Plus the mandatory sleeping bag chucked over the top :lol:

Target = 67°
Strike temp = 72.5°
Mash in = 67.5°
45 mins = 66.5°
90 mins = 66°

That's with 30L water and 6Kg of grain. That's good enough for me, I'm trying to get as much 'hands off' as possible during the brew i.e. go do other things (read - chores!).

Edit: I use a Thermapen for temps

Your right. Switching the 2.4kw element on/off every 30 seconds will drastically reduce the life of the element as well as the relay (which I wouldn't recommend using).

As most brewing setups, if you do want accurate temp control. (The controller you've ordered is a simple on/off target set point controller btw) you will need to use a solid state relay to (pulse width modulate the element) and a proper PID (proportional, integral, derivative) controller to drive it.

You'll find with what you have it's not the temp probes fault for over any shoots. It's the latent lag times in action = effect between the heater, fluid and temp probe. Which is where the PID controller and SSR will be learn (auto tune function) and then be able to predict temp ramp ups/downs.

Need any more info let me know.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hoddy said:

Your right. Switching the 2.4kw element on/off every 30 seconds will drastically reduce the life of the element as well as the relay (which I wouldn't recommend using).

As most brewing setups, if you do want accurate temp control. (The controller you've ordered is a simple on/off target set point controller btw) you will need to use a solid state relay to (pulse width modulate the element) and a proper PID (proportional, integral, derivative) controller to drive it.

You'll find with what you have it's not the temp probes fault for over any shoots. It's the latent lag times in action = effect between the heater, fluid and temp probe. Which is where the PID controller and SSR will be learn (auto tune function) and then be able to predict temp ramp ups/downs.

Need any more info let me know.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Hoddy, what you are saying sounds perfectly feasible that said I don't have clue what you have just typed, could you possibly explain in laymans terms, with diagrams? I looked up a SSR to see what they are, I also looked up a PID and watched a video on YouTube, I sort of get the principle.

2 x control options used regularly by brewers,
1) STC100 or similar (like yours) on/off controller
2) Pid controller.

the on/off controller may overshoot by 1C or so where as a pid controller runs off an algorithm designed to maximise efficiency when doing industrial sized heating jobs, so if tuned in correctly will heat upto the target without overshooting.

However both forms of control can suffer from the same 'feature' and that is when left at target temp for a while the liquid can settle into layers of different temperatures cooler at the base and warmer at the top, and generally spot on at the level the probe sits..

2 ways to sort this,
1) give the liquor a damn good stir to normalise it throughout.
2) some folk add active stirring or pumped recirculation during the heat up .

and if the liquor is still a little too hot mix in a bit of cold water and fine tune it just as you would the mash.

if your trying to maintain a mash temp with heat input during the mash without recirculating the liquor you will run the risk of cooking and denaturing the enzymes needed for conversion at the bottom before the heat can penetrate the bulk of your grain. Very bad idea imho..

Much better off to hit a good strike temp so after mashing in and fine tunniing, the temp is perfect and insulate the hell out of the pot during the mash. if you want to actively heat the mash then invest in a pid and pump

but google a few pid instruction manuals first they are not simple controllers..

You need a large element to get the water up to strike but after, you only need a very small watt element to maintain. I use 350/600 where I can switch between the 2.

Hoddy said:

Need any more info let me know.

Click to expand...

OK done a load more research I am looking at RKC's version of REX-C100 I know I will need to buy a PT100 Thermocouple apparently this is more accurate than the K Type, and a SSR. I suppose my only worries are will this be suitable for purpose, from what I can see this does not display decimal temperatures not sure if this is something I can setup within the settings?

Has anyone any experience of the above or similar, as ever any help is appreciated.

So there shouldn't be any difference between a thermocouple and a pt100 In the sense of accuracy. Don't know who told you that.

You do whoever need to make sure the PID controller you buy is specified for the right kind of temp probe. I.e pt100 pr thermocouple k/j type etc or Pt100. overall a pt100 solution will be allot cheaper. I would go for that.

Decimal temp display and control isn't imperative. Keeping it between 1 oC is more than adequate. But most PID controllers will go to up to 2 DP so you should be fine. Any decent PID controller should give you connection diagrams for the unit and the ssr you should be able to look up elsewhere.

Although I am feeling a YouTube video for my channel video coming on off the back of this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hoddy said:

Although I am feeling a YouTube video for my channel video coming on off the back of this.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Yes please.

I managed to follow a video to sort out STC1000 and MH controllers but need the same guidance for a PID.

No rush. Next day or two would be fine.[emoji1]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hoddy said:

Your right. Switching the 2.4kw element on/off every 30 seconds will drastically reduce the life of the element as well as the relay (which I wouldn't recommend using).

As most brewing setups, if you do want accurate temp control. (The controller you've ordered is a simple on/off target set point controller btw) you will need to use a solid state relay to (pulse width modulate the element) and a proper PID (proportional, integral, derivative) controller to drive it.

You'll find with what you have it's not the temp probes fault for over any shoots. It's the latent lag times in action = effect between the heater, fluid and temp probe. Which is where the PID controller and SSR will be learn (auto tune function) and then be able to predict temp ramp ups/downs.

Need any more info let me know.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

Cool Hoddy.
Many of brewing professor use Inkbird PID ITC-100 series and they gave us lots of suggestions to improve the products.

Hoddy said:

So there shouldn't be any difference between a thermocouple and a pt100 In the sense of accuracy. Don't know who told you that.

Click to expand...

Right before I reply let me say I am by no means a expert, I have seen on various sites that the PT100 is more accurate than the standard K Type, this site and table 1 shows someone elses findings, this seems to be fairly consistant with what I have seen elsewhere, am I misreading the findings or interpreting them incorrectly?

Smileyr8 said:

The Inkbirds won't handle to 2.4kw element.

Mmmm, interesting idea, I wonder if I could wire a 2 way switch with resistor in one of the ways to make the element run at percentage of the actual 2.4kw, are there any electricians out there who could advise on such & would running the element at a reduced wattage cause any damage?

Click to expand...

Ah...I see what you're looking for now. I use a cheap little pump to recirculate the mash in my boiler, so everything is being continually mixed bit I would be v interested in upgrading from a simple temperature controller to a PID if it improved temperature control.

As regards the issue of the over-powered boiler element I think I have found a better solution than a simple diode in the circuit thanks to the advice of Dad who designs and builds cryogenic cooling systems (just a few hundred degrees in the wrong direction :lol:).

I have ordered a 2000W 220V adjustable Voltage Regulator. Most of them have an integrated control knob, but this one has the knob on a remote cable so should be easier to install in the boiler.

If it works it should give total control over the element and I can dial the power right down for the mash so that it remains on for most of the time at a very gentle heat. If it doesn't I will end up defibrulating myself :whistle:

Inkbird said:

Many of brewing professor use Inkbird PID ITC-100 series and they gave us lots of suggestions to improve the products.

Click to expand...

Is anyone out there using an ITC-100?

I've been very happy with the other Inkbird controllers that I have (308S and 310)....would this do the job for a 1600W element?

donchiquon said:

Is anyone out there using an ITC-100?

I've been very happy with the other Inkbird controllers that I have (308S and 310)....would this do the job for a 1600W element?

Click to expand...

For the Inkbird ITC-100 series, we suggest ITC-100VH+25A/40A SSR+ K sensor

Hoddy.

You say that switching the element off every 30 seconds will drastically reduce the life.
I built a control box to control my rolling boil, which basically does exactly this.

It is in effect, an electric cooker knob, connected to a plug socket.
The boiler connects to the plug socket, the control box to the wall output, with the cooker knob in between regulating the pulses.

I guess it's a trade off between a vigorous rolling boil losing valuable wort or a worn out heater ??

Rogermort said:

Yes please.

I managed to follow a video to sort out STC1000 and MH controllers but need the same guidance for a PID.

No rush. Next day or two would be fine.[emoji1]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

I'm on it. Just coming up with what would be useful to cover in a vid and I'll try and do a vid during the week and add it to my channel.

I'll post an update here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

for pids this manual http://auberins.com/images/Manual/SYL-2362 instruction 1.6.pdf is pretty good at filling in the gaps that the basic instruction sheets that ship with the cheaper models

the wiring up is pretty simple and thats about all the supplied info sheets for the cheaper pids are good for the a/c live and neutral in terminals are not pole specific, the probe connects to upto 3 terminals depending on type , and the control terminals for the DC drive current for the ssr are marked +/- and like all dc circuits + to + - to - the SSR will clearly mark the load and drive terminals the load terminals will be bigger too..

remember to connect the earth to the heatsink/SSR base..

to teach your pid which variables to apply for your specific needs run an auto tune with the target set to your mash/strike temp on an approximation of your brew volumes/conditions, to save time preheat upto 40-50c and dont worry if it takes ages, it can do thats fine, After the autotune the system should be set up to run without overshooting. But it might be worthwhile delving into the settings to retrieve the P I and D variables it has set and note them down.