Some questions about the Wyeast Pilsen smack pack

W0nderW0man · May 30, 2016

Got my first smack pack for this brew and am going to use the Wyeast Pilsen 2007 on this one. Now, a few questions... I took it out of the fridge in the morning/midday to come up to temperature, but I didn't check the instructions, so didn't actually smack/activate it until an hour ago or so. Do I really have to wait another 2 hours before pitching?

The other thing is, as it is for a lager, how cool should the wort be for me to pitch it? I am currently cooling it down manually (next purchase has got to be a wort cooler!) and then I will have to ferment it going the waterbath+ice bottle way. So because of that it would be best if I could get it as cool as possible already but does the yeast want it warmer for the first 24hrs? I've read different things...

Leon103 · May 30, 2016

Not used the yeast before. What temperature does the pack say to ferment at?

W0nderW0man · May 30, 2016

actually it says on the pack to pitch at 18-22 and maintain this until CO2 is evident. But it being a lager I should ferment it at 12ÃÂ°C or so...? Can I pitch it then at 22 degrees and sit the whole thing in the water bath with ice bottles? I wonder at what rate it will cool down.

MyQul · May 30, 2016

Their some evididence that fermenting a lager at ale temps wont give you much of a difference to if you ferment at lager temps. Something I plan on trying out at some point.

http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

As you dont have that good temp control. I would say its more important to keep a constant temp, whatever tempt you eventually ferment at

Hoddy · May 30, 2016

MyQul said:
Their some evididence that fermenting a lager at ale temps wont give you much of a difference to if you ferment at lager temps. Something I plan on trying out at some point.

http://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/

As you dont have that good temp control. I would say its more important to keep a constant temp, whatever tempt you eventually ferment at

Myquil is right. If you can't achieve 10oC constant then achieving as low as possible consistently is important. With larger yeast the higher the temp the more fusel alcohols are produced (egg'y smell) and then therefore the more time is needed to clean up the lager to get rid of them.

Also I would say that really to use a lager yeast (2007 ect) really you should be using a starter. The higher cell count helps with the yeast cells not being stressed at those lower temps.

So if I'm honest, if you don't have the ability to manage these low temps your better off making a pseudo lager.

In short. If you've already started. Keep it low. As low as you can. Then follow the lagering techniques.

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MyQul · May 30, 2016

+1 for what hoddy said. If your fermenting at proper lager temps you need a large starter as lagers need about twice as much yeast cells as ale's due to the cold temps your fermenting at (the colder things are the slooower things happen so you need more cells to do the work)

See how you get on with this brew but I agree with hoddy, do pseudo lagers. Despite the fact I have the ability to make proper lagers (I have a brew bag) I'm a big fan of pseudo lagers as they're faster to make, don't require diacytl rests or a massive pitches of yeast and they taste similar, if not indestingishable from proper lagers.
I've currently got a Vienna pseudo lager in the FV at the mo using WLP001 which I free fermented at 22C/23C ambient (almost defiantely got a lot hotter in the FV). I tasted the gravity sample I took yesterday (6 days fermentation so far) and it tastes nice and clean, no off flavours as far as I could tell.
As you dont have good temp control, I'd wait till winter to use proper lager yeast strains and pseudo lager your way through summer/autumn - it's what I plan on doing

W0nderW0man · May 30, 2016

thanks guys, let's hope for the best now. If it doesn't turn out as desired I will do a pseudolager for a next lager. It certainly is less hassle

I will have a look at the yeast you suggested for this. I don't even know why I wanted to do a proper lager. I guess you hear those people that claim that there is nothing as clean tasting as lager yeast and that a pseudo lager is nothing like lager and you end up believing it and trying it. We will see if it was worth it this time. Would be a shame if not as the wort turned out spot on, so it is all down to the yeast now. To make things worse, too, the smack pack, despite me smacking it twice and hearing a loud bang, didn't actually smack the inner pouch, so I ended up cutting it open with sterilised scissors and mixing it in just before pitching..... I can only hope that the 18ÃÂ°C of the wort now and the fact that I used one whole smack pack for 12 litres will do its trick despite the less than ideal conditions. I also decided to take the ice bottles out for tonight to give the yeast a head start. Will check back in the morning...

Hoddy · May 31, 2016

Ahh ok. It sounds like you would have got the right pitch rate given one pack and the size of the batch. To be honest you don't "need" the pack in the smack pack. It's just nutrient that helps kick start the yeast off. As long as you are sterile there wouldn't be any harm done.
The key is to get it as low and as consistent as possible for the next 2-3 weeks.

Try looking at a kolsch yeast with a nice simple grain bill of 60-70% Pilsner and 20-28% MO with a touch carapils or crystal 60L. Fermented at a steady 20oC you'll end up with something that once carbonated and cold, on a hot day, you won't care that it's not a "lager".

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W0nderW0man · May 31, 2016

A little update: So I pitched the yeast last night, it was 18 degrees and I left it outside in the water bath all night. check this morning and it was 16 degrees. As expected with those temperatures, there hasn't been any activity. So I got the VF inside and it's warmed up to 18 degrees now. Should I let it get a bit warmer and wait for CO2 action and then put it outside in the waterbath with ice straight away or should I let it get started for longer and then put out... or shoud I not even bother and put it back out now, even tho it's not active yet?

Edit: I was looking at making a KÃÂ¶lsch next anyway ;-)

Endatheworld · May 31, 2016

W0nderW0man said:
A little update: So I pitched the yeast last night, it was 18 degrees and I left it outside in the water bath all night. check this morning and it was 16 degrees. As expected with those temperatures, there hasn't been any activity. So I got the VF inside and it's warmed up to 18 degrees now. Should I let it get a bit warmer and wait for CO2 action and then put it outside in the waterbath with ice straight away or should I let it get started for longer and then put out... or shoud I not even bother and put it back out now, even tho it's not active yet?

Edit: I was looking at making a KÃÂ¶lsch next anyway ;-)

It might not make much of a difference either way.
What was the packaging date on the yeast? I pitched one of those smack packs of Pilsner yeast into 2 x 5L of wort for a temp experiment I was doing with lager yeast. One was set fermenting at 20c and the other was at 10c. Both of them took nearly 4 days to start! It was only after that I realized that the yeast was over 6 months old. The viability of those packs degrades severely over that time especially as there is no way of knowing how well they were stored since packaging.

Cwrw666 · May 31, 2016

W0nderW0man said:
thanks guys, let's hope for the best now. If it doesn't turn out as desired I will do a pseudolager for a next lager. It certainly is less hassle I will have a look at the yeast you suggested for this. I don't even know why I wanted to do a proper lager. I guess you hear those people that claim that there is nothing as clean tasting as lager yeast and that a pseudo lager is nothing like lager and you end up believing it and trying it. We will see if it was worth it this time. Would be a shame if not as the wort turned out spot on, so it is all down to the yeast now. To make things worse, too, the smack pack, despite me smacking it twice and hearing a loud bang, didn't actually smack the inner pouch, so I ended up cutting it open with sterilised scissors and mixing it in just before pitching..... I can only hope that the 18ÃÂ°C of the wort now and the fact that I used one whole smack pack for 12 litres will do its trick despite the less than ideal conditions. I also decided to take the ice bottles out for tonight to give the yeast a head start. Will check back in the morning...

I've only used a smack-pack once and I was surprised that I had to Beat the s**t out of it to get the inner pack to burst.
The fluid surrounding it is a nutrient for the yeast - basically it's a yeast starter in a bag. So you do have to leave it for a couple of hours to get the yeast going before you pitch it. You can tell it's worked because the pack starts to swell up with CO2 which shows the yeast has been activated. I'm afraid if you omitted this stage the yeast won't have activated.

W0nderW0man · Jun 1, 2016

Endatheworld said:
It might not make much of a difference either way.
What was the packaging date on the yeast? I pitched one of those smack packs of Pilsner yeast into 2 x 5L of wort for a temp experiment I was doing with lager yeast. One was set fermenting at 20c and the other was at 10c. Both of them took nearly 4 days to start! It was only after that I realized that the yeast was over 6 months old. The viability of those packs degrades severely over that time especially as there is no way of knowing how well they were stored since packaging.

That's interesting. I will have a look. I think it said to use by September, but not sure how old it actually was. EDIT: The only date on the pack is underneath the yeast type on the front saying MFG Nov 2015.

Did you do a taste experiment with the two? Would be interesting what it turned out! I guess I will leave it indoors then until it starts off. I've just given it a swirl with the lid on, should I do that more regularly?

W0nderW0man · Jun 1, 2016

Cwrw666 said:
I've only used a smack-pack once and I was surprised that I had to Beat the s**t out of it to get the inner pack to burst.
The fluid surrounding it is a nutrient for the yeast - basically it's a yeast starter in a bag. So you do have to leave it for a couple of hours to get the yeast going before you pitch it. You can tell it's worked because the pack starts to swell up with CO2 which shows the yeast has been activated. I'm afraid if you omitted this stage the yeast won't have activated.

After I smacked it I could hear sizzling and it really sounded like something in it was "leaking" and "activating" - it was hard enough to actually feel the inner pack before smacking, too, by the way. So when I heard the sizzling, I shook it and set it aside. I did wonder whether it was actually "swelling" thought, because it didn't seem to.

Cwrw666 · Jun 1, 2016

W0nderW0man said:
After I smacked it I could hear sizzling and it really sounded like something in it was "leaking" and "activating" - it was hard enough to actually feel the inner pack before smacking, too, by the way. So when I heard the sizzling, I shook it and set it aside. I did wonder whether it was actually "swelling" thought, because it didn't seem to.

Well I hope it gets going for you, if not you're going to need to get some other yeast in there pretty quick or you'll lose the wort too.
The beer I made from my smack pack - a french Biere de garde - turned out really well but I must admit I was astonished by the price of the yeast - ÃÂ£6.85!!!! Like always I re-used the trub for a second brew but that still means it cost ÃÂ£3.50 just for the yeast. So whether or not I'd bother with it again is doubtful.

W0nderW0man · Jun 1, 2016

Cwrw666 said:
Well I hope it gets going for you, if not you're going to need to get some other yeast in there pretty quick or you'll lose the wort too.
The beer I made from my smack pack - a french Biere de garde - turned out really well but I must admit I was astonished by the price of the yeast - Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½ÃÂ£6.85!!!! Like always I re-used the trub for a second brew but that still means it cost Ã¯Â¿Â½Ã¯Â¿Â½ÃÂ£3.50 just for the yeast. So whether or not I'd bother with it again is doubtful.

Okay... what do you think how long I have? It is my first attempt with lager yeast so it would be annoying to buy another lager yeast just in case I need it (there is the weekend coming up now to which slows mail order down...) and then if I don't need it I am left with another pack of (expensive) lager yeast...

Endatheworld · Jun 1, 2016

W0nderW0man said:
That's interesting. I will have a look. I think it said to use by September, but not sure how old it actually was. EDIT: The only date on the pack is underneath the yeast type on the front saying MFG Nov 2015.

Did you do a taste experiment with the two? Would be interesting what it turned out! I guess I will leave it indoors then until it starts off. I've just given it a swirl with the lid on, should I do that more regularly?

Those two are still lagering and i haven't tasted them yet. If the yeast was manufactured last November then it would only have a viability of about 10-15%. So from a possible cell count of 100 billion you are down to 10-15 billion cells which is way below pitching rate for a lager. I reckon it will still start. How many days has it been?

W0nderW0man · Jun 1, 2016

Endatheworld said:
Those two are still lagering and i haven't tasted them yet. If the yeast was manufactured last November then it would only have a viability of about 10-15%. So from a possible cell count of 100 billion you are down to 10-15 billion cells which is way below pitching rate for a lager. I reckon it will still start. How many days has it been?

I only pitched it Monday night, late. So it's been 34 hours or so I think.

That's a super low count though! Surely they shouldn't sell anything like that? :O

W0nderW0man · Jun 1, 2016

This might not mean anything but when I opened the yeast pack and smelled it, it didn't smell at all yeasty but actually of a finished beer. I expected it to smell super yeasty.

Endatheworld · Jun 1, 2016

W0nderW0man said:
I only pitched it Monday night, late. So it's been 34 hours or so I think.

That's a super low count though! Surely they shouldn't sell anything like that? :O

Give it another day then. Where did you buy it? Maybe give them a call?. I agree that they should sell yeast that is over 6 months old. I for one will be more careful in future when buying liquid yeast.

W0nderW0man said:
This might not mean anything but when I opened the yeast pack and smelled it, it didn't smell at all yeasty but actually of a finished beer. I expected it to smell super yeasty.

Not sure if that what that means.:-?

W0nderW0man · Jun 1, 2016

Endatheworld said:
Give it another day then. Where did you buy it? Maybe give them a call?. I agree that they should sell yeast that is over 6 months old. I for one will be more careful in future when buying liquid yeast.

It's the first time I bought liquid yeast. I read about the dry Saflagers and wasn't sure if they'd give me as clean a taste as I was after as people reported about fruity tastes with both of them. I think that the 34/70 would be my backup though? I don't want to mix yeasts but if I buy another liquid pack I will have to pay super high shipping just for that and the high price of the yeast.

I wrote to the shop (get er brewed), to be honest, I didn't expect them to sell substandard yeast, unless reduced and stated otherwise. I wouldn't have bothered or bought two packs had I known

Some questions about the Wyeast Pilsen smack pack

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