Celtic Pronunciations

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peebee

peebee

Out of Control
Joined
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North Wales
Trundling through all the beer threads I came across:
pms67 said:
... for a hop schedule for Ceaser Augustus ...
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... okay, excuse the spelling, we can all be guilty of a bit of that! But Boudicca got the proper "Celtic" pronunciation recently (something like "Boo-dika"), perhaps "Caesar" should be getting the same? "Kaiser" would be more accurate? I.e. hard "C". Celtic grew up alongside Latin (Roman); "English" (and soft "C"s) didn't come along until much later.

Of course, this is just an excuse to bring up another "beer" topic of pronouncing "Cwtch" (the Little Rebel beer). There is no "tch" sound in Welsh Celtic ("Cymraeg" - "Welsh" is really an insulting Anglo-Saxon word). The Northern Welsh would spell it "Cwtsh" although that wouldn't be entirely correct either - but the Southern Welsh (Little Rebel is down there) do tend to be a bit fancy-free with their language (and tend to be big and play rugby lots ... I better shut up now).
 
peebee said:
Trundling through all the beer threads I came across:

... okay, excuse the spelling, we can all be guilty of a bit of that! But Boudicca got the proper "Celtic" pronunciation recently (something like "Boo-dika"), perhaps "Caesar" should be getting the same? "Kaiser" would be more accurate? I.e. hard "C". Celtic grew up alongside Latin (Roman); "English" (and soft "C"s) didn't come along until much later.

Of course, this is just an excuse to bring up another "beer" topic of pronouncing "Cwtch" (the Little Rebel beer). There is no "tch" sound in Welsh Celtic ("Cymraeg" - "Welsh" is really an insulting Anglo-Saxon word). The Northern Welsh would spell it "Cwtsh" although that wouldn't be entirely correct either - but the Southern Welsh (Little Rebel is down there) do tend to be a bit fancy-free with their language (and tend to be big and play rugby lots ... I better shut up now).
Click to expand...

Hmm now are the planning on playing that roman centurian played by john cleese who made Brian write the correct latin on the wall a hundred time in the life of brain in some sort of a play :lol:
 
Tau said:
Hmm now are the planning on playing that roman centurian played by john cleese who made Brian write the correct latin on the wall a hundred time in the life of brain in some sort of a play :lol:
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Yeah, I'd be that centurion! (Hang on, are we pronouncing "centurion" right?).

I'm the worst sort of "Welshman" - brought up in England, can hardly speak a word of my Mother's tongue, then striding into Wales in my later years casting doubt on the language. Oh, and dragging Latin into the debate along the way.

But I do dislike inconsistency (don't know why, English is full to bursting with them). Like "cwtch", voted a favourite word in the Welsh language (in a survey for kids I believe, and about 10 years ago, but brought back into the lime-light by Little Rebel brewery). Imagine the awards ceremony ... "The favourite Welsh word is 'cwt...' (hang on, we can't write it down properly)".

And soft "C"s: Apparently they are the fault of the Church pretending to speak Latin in the 5th (...ish) century?
 
peebee said:
Trundling through all the beer threads I came across:

... okay, excuse the spelling, we can all be guilty of a bit of that! But Boudicca got the proper "Celtic" pronunciation recently (something like "Boo-dika"), perhaps "Caesar" should be getting the same? "Kaiser" would be more accurate? I.e. hard "C". Celtic grew up alongside Latin (Roman); "English" (and soft "C"s) didn't come along until much later.

Of course, this is just an excuse to bring up another "beer" topic of pronouncing "Cwtch" (the Little Rebel beer). There is no "tch" sound in Welsh Celtic ("Cymraeg" - "Welsh" is really an insulting Anglo-Saxon word). The Northern Welsh would spell it "Cwtsh" although that wouldn't be entirely correct either - but the Southern Welsh (Little Rebel is down there) do tend to be a bit fancy-free with their language (and tend to be big and play rugby lots ... I better shut up now).
Click to expand...

I wish I could wax lyrical about latin at school, but it was my worst subject and I remember none of it, but more recently I came across a fact that in latin c is always hard.
 
peebee said:
Yeah, I'd be that centurion! (Hang on, are we pronouncing "centurion" right?).

I'm the worst sort of "Welshman" - brought up in England, can hardly speak a word of my Mother's tongue, then striding into Wales in my later years casting doubt on the language. Oh, and dragging Latin into the debate along the way.

But I do dislike inconsistency (don't know why, English is full to bursting with them). Like "cwtch", voted a favourite word in the Welsh language (in a survey for kids I believe, and about 10 years ago, but brought back into the lime-light by Little Rebel brewery). Imagine the awards ceremony ... "The favourite Welsh word is 'cwt...' (hang on, we can't write it down properly)".

And soft "C"s: Apparently they are the fault of the Church pretending to speak Latin in the 5th (...ish) century?
Click to expand...
So, how should I pronounce "cwtch"? Sorry to have to ask, but I'm born & raised in Kent - (the ancient kingdom of Cantium ) (...hard 'C')....:whistle:
 
marlon said:
So, how should I pronounce "cwtch"? Sorry to have to ask, but I'm born & raised in Kent - (the ancient kingdom of Cantium ) (...hard 'C')....:whistle:
Click to expand...
Something like "koo-t-sh". Hence the spelling in North Wales ("cwtsh"). But there is no single sound like "sh" attributed to Welsh spelling, except "si" at the beginning of some words ("shop" is spelt "siop" in Welsh but pronounced the same).
 
peebee said:
Something like "koo-t-sh". Hence the spelling in North Wales ("cwtsh"). But there is no single sound like "sh" attributed to Welsh spelling, except "si" at the beginning of some words ("shop" is spelt "siop" in Welsh but pronounced the same).
Click to expand...

Koo-t-sh - as in kootch-y-koo?
 
I think it rhymes with hutch...as for words like siop for shop it's because there's no direct word in Welsh for it. A lot of English is derived from the people who invaded Britain through the ages...there's lots of Danish from the vikings also saxon words.
One I like is The Great Orm, a great big lump of rock on the north Wales coast...it's viking translation is Great (w)Orm as in serpent as the vikings likened it to a great serpent rising from the sea.

Cheers

Clint
 
peebee said:
Yeah, I'd be that centurion! (Hang on, are we pronouncing "centurion" right?).

I'm the worst sort of "Welshman" - brought up in England, can hardly speak a word of my Mother's tongue, then striding into Wales in my later years casting doubt on the language. Oh, and dragging Latin into the debate along the way.

But I do dislike inconsistency (don't know why, English is full to bursting with them). Like "cwtch", voted a favourite word in the Welsh language (in a survey for kids I believe, and about 10 years ago, but brought back into the lime-light by Little Rebel brewery). Imagine the awards ceremony ... "The favourite Welsh word is 'cwt...' (hang on, we can't write it down properly)".

And soft "C"s: Apparently they are the fault of the Church pretending to speak Latin in the 5th (...ish) century?
Click to expand...

A bit like cwrt is cwtch, more 'kwr' sound 'T' hard 'ch' ceh rather than sh I hear it that way.

A great English contention is place names ending in Mouth, Muth or mouth. Remember it comming up in the media when PM Brown said Bournemouth saying mouth rather than muth. Yet exceptions being Grangemouth, cockermouth, oystermouth and axmouth. Yet at no point did they mention that the old english spelling for mouth was muth. Whose right? Mouth spoken and muth was written, yet become spoken as muth after vowels were added to the word!
 
Clint said:
I think it rhymes with hutch...as for words like siop for shop it's because there's no direct word in Welsh for it. A lot of English is derived from the people who invaded Britain through the ages...there's lots of Danish from the vikings also saxon words.
One I like is The Great Orm, a great big lump of rock on the north Wales coast...it's viking translation is Great (w)Orm as in serpent as the vikings likened it to a great serpent rising from the sea.

Cheers

Clint
Click to expand...
"Rhymes with 'hutch'", yeah I've come across that. Having determined "cwtsh" is an anomaly I think you can find dozens of attempts to pronounce it correctly - all right, all wrong, all depending on how your Mam (and beyond) says it. Careful with "siop", I never said it was a translation, it's just the Welsh spelling of that sound; just like "Wrecsam" (an English town reoccupied by the Welsh). And the Orme? That'll be "Pen-y-Gogarth" you mean?

Anyway, don't fight, you are probably on the same side going by your profile. One of the major disadvantages of the Welsh when the English invaded; the Welsh could never agree between themselves.

Tau said:
A bit like ...
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I think you may be alluding to "wenglish"? A condition afflicting the south of Wales mainly.
 
peebee said:
"Rhymes with 'hutch'", yeah I've come across that. Having determined "cwtsh" is an anomaly I think you can find dozens of attempts to pronounce it correctly - all right, all wrong, all depending on how your Mam (and beyond) says it. Careful with "siop", I never said it was a translation, it's just the Welsh spelling of that sound; just like "Wrecsam" (an English town reoccupied by the Welsh). And the Orme? That'll be "Pen-y-Gogarth" you mean?

Anyway, don't fight, you are probably on the same side going by your profile. One of the major disadvantages of the Welsh when the English invaded; the Welsh could never agree between themselves.


I think you may be alluding to "wenglish"? A condition afflicting the south of Wales mainly.
Click to expand...

But you have to bare in mind that most Welsh has been invented in the past 50 years. Ancient Welsh, Breton and Cornish being from ancient language roots found from us travelling across the world, even in northern india and pakistan they can understand welsh and gaelic speakers. I used to work with a true welsh linguist who taught english to indians etc. He would always teach them welsh before teaching english. Reason he quoted was that in 2 weeks they could speak welsh, without learning welsh they would take 5 years to learn english, with welsh 6 months to speak english. His employers were always amazed at the progress of his pupils, while standard english teachers seemed to get nowhere with their pupils.
 
peebee said:
I think you may be alluding to "wenglish"? A condition afflicting the south of Wales mainly.
Click to expand...

Well cwtch was often said in Gavin and Stacey ( tv prog') so my infor'...lol

On an archeological note the word in Welsh for dog always inspired me for the transient nature of celtic peoples, in that it corrisponded with the bablylonian dog god MOT. (not be confused with car road wothiness :grin:)

Which also ties in with the appearence of red headed rulers in ancient Egypt with Seti the first and his heir rameses etc.

Even the chinese have found tartan in norther china, not this time claiming ownership (like noodle and pasta), but suggesting that Britains tavelled a lot in the ancient past. Lets face it Britains got around, Norse might have founded Greenland and newfoundland, but we might have been there 15,000 years before that!
 
Tau said:
But you have to bare in mind that most Welsh has been invented in the past 50 years. Ancient Welsh, Breton and Cornish being from ancient language roots found from us travelling across the world, ...
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Cheers Tau. "Travelling", aye, that will do it: There's the Welsh in Patagonia that are often used to find the "correct" way of pronouncing Welsh (they are a "set in time" anomaly). They'd know the "correct" way of pronouncing and spelling "cwtsh" ... if only I knew a Patagonian Welsh person.

Celtic languages pre-date writing hence the reliance on Latin and eternal arguing. After a bit of Googling, if I want to campaign to replace "Caesar" ("sea-sar" as it is now) with something like "Kaiser", seems I wouldn't be the first.

Your ramblings about the Asian subcontinent are perfectly reasonable: But the Britons didn't wander over there, they wandered over here. Followed centuries later by the Gaelic speaking bunch (who displaced any Celts in Ireland and from there displaced the Celtic Picts; whom once established, as Scots, start in return displacing the Gaels in Ireland creating Ulster and centuries of strife. As I hinted earlier, why fight foreign invaders when there is always plenty of other Celts/Gaels to fight near at hand).
 
peebee said:
Your ramblings about the Asian subcontinent are perfectly reasonable: But the Britons didn't wander over there, they wandered over here.
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Not sure sure about that, I'll tell you why. The neolithic common culture seems to have started here around 3500bc, in the Orkneys, this had spread to as far as Malta with a couple of hundred years and a tomb with 6ft plus red heads being found in a tombs there dating around such times. But there is an analomy in South Korea only, where circles also appear. Some how British megalithic culture had got there, how? As it seems not be be in the north then a sea landing appears plauable. Could they have gone over the pole and found themselves there? Was hunting along the ice in the pole with a few breaks during warmer years how they found themselves going through northern china and down the old silk road, through India, Iran and back to Britain over a period of centuries. Way back when the glaciers came far south, hunter gatherers regularly traversed from Britain to the far end in china and back, taking a number of years to do so. Did this route and practice continue into the neolithic? You say we came from there and most do, could be were were just comming back from an extended beano...lol
 
Tau said:
Not sure about that, ...
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Well you said it ...
As we've exited the realms of "accepted" ideas and headed into "alternative" ideas, I'll have to go back and ponder for a while ...
(Anyway, this isn't necessarily getting closer to "did we have Roman 'sea-sars' or where they 'kaisers'"?).
 
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