Chocolate Stout with Vanilla help!

Just planning by brew day for the weekend and fancy doing a stout (first time).

How does this sound for a 23l batch?

3.3kg Maris Otter
0.5kg Chocolate
0.2kg Caramel 40
0.4kg Flaked Barley

0.5kg Lactose as a late addition

40g Saaz @ 60 mins

2 x vanilla pods and 10-15 cocoa nibs (roasted) @ 4 days in FV

Do I have too much lactose? Im looking for a creamy head and smooth sweet taste.

0.5kg Lactose sounds like a lot to me as I think this works out to about 10g per pint of extra un-fermentable sugars, especially if you're using a low attenuating yeast??
Do you have a predicted OG & FG for this brew?

OG - 1.059 and est FG - 1021

Would 0.3kg sound better? That would mean OG - 1.056 and FG - 1.018

Yeast wise I was planning on using US-05 but only because i have some! Would you have a better suggestion?

Seems a shame to use Saaz hops in a stout ... :shock:

US05 is a relatively high attenuating yeast, according to the Fermentis blurb it will only leave 3gr / litre of maltotriose in the brew, that is on a par with their lager yeasts, about 80% attenuation. S04 on the other hand will leave 10 gr / litre, around the 70% attenuation mark.
If you want a sweet beer, why not try the Danstar ESB yeast ... that will only attenuate to about 65% ... and that will allow you to reduce the lactose content in your brew.

Is your recipe based on a published recipe ? Chocolate malt is a strong bittering agent, I would imagine that cocoa nibs (whatever they are) are pretty bitter too, cocoa powder is pretty bitter. So I have no idea how all of that is going to balance up in the recipe. Particularly as your dosage of crystal malt is quite light. Sorry, I guess that has put the cat amongst the pigeons sort of thing.

100 to 200 gr of standard flour in your mash will help with head retention ... it's wheat !

And I am also wondering if you will actually taste any vanilla at the end. I use two vanilla pods to make a litre of "creme anglaise" ... proper custard, not the powdered stuff.

Sorry, more questions than answers there ... but I am intrigued.

Bodleigh Head said:

Seems a shame to use Saaz hops in a stout ... :shock:

US05 is a relatively high attenuating yeast, according to the Fermentis blurb it will only leave 3gr / litre of maltotriose in the brew, that is on a par with their lager yeasts, about 80% attenuation. S04 on the other hand will leave 10 gr / litre, around the 70% attenuation mark.
If you want a sweet beer, why not try the Danstar ESB yeast ... that will only attenuate to about 65% ... and that will allow you to reduce the lactose content in your brew.

Click to expand...

Again, only because I have a shed load in the freezer! May look to change this up.

OK, that sounds like a plan with the yeast and makes sense, cheers :thumb:

Bodleigh Head said:

Is your recipe based on a published recipe ? Chocolate malt is a strong bittering agent, I would imagine that cocoa nibs (whatever they are) are pretty bitter too, cocoa powder is pretty bitter. So I have no idea how all of that is going to balance up in the recipe. Particularly as your dosage of crystal malt is quite light. Sorry, I guess that has put the cat amongst the pigeons sort of thing.

And I am also wondering if you will actually taste any vanilla at the end. I use two vanilla pods to make a litre of "creme anglaise" ... proper custard, not the powdered stuff.

Click to expand...

Kind of, bit of a mash up of various bits I have seen on brewers friend. Perhaps upping the crystal and reducing the chocolate would be the way forward, looks like Im going to need to get back to the drawing board!

I must admit, I thought the same in terms of Vanilla but most of the recipes I have read suggest just 2. I suppose I could always add some vanilla extract later on if I cant taste it.

jimmyblade said:

Kind of, bit of a mash up of various bits I have seen on brewers friend. Perhaps upping the crystal and reducing the chocolate would be the way forward, looks like Im going to need to get back to the drawing board!

I must admit, I thought the same in terms of Vanilla but most of the recipes I have read suggest just 2. I suppose I could always add some vanilla extract later on if I cant taste it.

Click to expand...

I am in unknown territory on the vanilla front, I have been told that vanilla extract in a brew tastes horrible, take that for what it's worth, it's only third hand now !
I usually put about 500 gr of chocolate malt in a stout because I like dry stout, the accent being on dry. I also prefer chocolate malt over roasted barley because it's a bit more mellow.

If you want an ESB type sweetness, I would be looking at 400 gr of 40L crystal malt ... if I remember rightly, the Fuller's ESB clone recipes tend to go for around 400 gr.

Do you have any reference in mind ? I have Les Howarth's Database here ... I could look the brewery up.

The meantime chocolate porter gave me the initial idea, lovely drop that, but I would really like to try and brew a stout rather than a porter.

Can you explain the database? that sounds interesting!

I used vanilla in a coffee vanilla stout, for ~23 litres I used 2 pods sliced open down the middle and chopped into chunks in the fermenter for 5 days, gave it a really nice vanilla flavour. Saaz is fine to use in a stout, it gives a nice bitterness. Generally I wouldn't use it just because so much has to be used due to its low AA%, but that's just because of hop efficiency as opposed to it making your beer taste nasty. If it comes out well and you want ot make it again, you could use Herkules or Dana, both made to be bittering hops and have a smooth bitterness.

Anyway, US-05 is a high attenuating yeast but it looks like with all those unfermentables you'll be alright.

Why not add some oats for the head?

I would also add a lot more vanilla pods. I used 4 in a porter and couldn't taste it

Leon103 said:

Why not add some oats for the head?

I would also add a lot more vanilla pods. I used 4 in a porter and couldn't taste it

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Would you substitute some barley? Or add them in addition too?

jimmyblade said:

The meantime chocolate porter gave me the initial idea, lovely drop that, but I would really like to try and brew a stout rather than a porter.

Can you explain the database? that sounds interesting!

Click to expand...

It's basically a dictionary ... it lists breweries and gives vague indications of their recipes ... in terms of % only. it's enough to know where to start looking

I have the first edition, the Meantime Brewing Company isn't in there. But it's up to its 3rd edition now.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/les-howart...e-3rd-edition/paperback/product-22524109.html

Bodleigh Head said:

It's basically a dictionary ... it lists breweries and gives vague indications of their recipes ... in terms of % only. it's enough to know where to start looking

I have the first edition, the Meantime Brewing Company isn't in there. But it's up to its 3rd edition now.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/les-howart...e-3rd-edition/paperback/product-22524109.html

Click to expand...

:thumb: That's great, thanks!

Porter vs Stout ... oh gosh, there is a slippery slope of a question.... :whistle:

Meantime Brewing Company ... not in Protz's real ale almanac either ... and there was me thinking the digital watch was quite a nifty invention !

Here is Marc Olloson's version of Marston Moor Brewery Porter ... I would probably call it a stout ! :-?
4.2 kg of pale
0.12 kg of crystal (50L)
0.12 kg of wheat (flour will do, I have used flour before)
0.4 kg of roasted barley.
Challenger hops, IBU = 36

jimmyblade said:

OG - 1.059 and est FG - 1021

Would 0.3kg sound better? That would mean OG - 1.056 and FG - 1.018

Click to expand...

Like Bodleigh mentioned you'd probably be better off choosing a lower attenuating yeast and maybe mashing a bit hotter. I used WLP002 English ale yeast in my latest stout.
You can always add some lactose before packaging if you don't think its sweet enough

jceg316 said:

I used vanilla in a coffee vanilla stout, for ~23 litres I used 2 pods sliced open down the middle and chopped into chunks in the fermenter for 5 days, gave it a really nice vanilla flavour. Saaz is fine to use in a stout, it gives a nice bitterness. Generally I wouldn't use it just because so much has to be used due to its low AA%, but that's just because of hop efficiency as opposed to it making your beer taste nasty. If it comes out well and you want ot make it again, you could use Herkules or Dana, both made to be bittering hops and have a smooth bitterness.

Anyway, US-05 is a high attenuating yeast but it looks like with all those unfermentables you'll be alright.

Click to expand...

Saaz => seems a shame to use a really nice hop in a stout ... at least to my way of thinking

jimmyblade said:

Would you substitute some barley? Or add them in addition too?

Click to expand...

Just add some

Bodleigh Head said:

It's basically a dictionary ... it lists breweries and gives vague indications of their recipes ... in terms of % only. it's enough to know where to start looking

I have the first edition, the Meantime Brewing Company isn't in there. But it's up to its 3rd edition now.

http://www.lulu.com/shop/les-howart...e-3rd-edition/paperback/product-22524109.html

Click to expand...

Link didn't work.

Can you give us more information on the database, never heard of it before