Beer and global warming.

The Homebrew Forum

Help Support The Homebrew Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Duxuk

Landlord.
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
Messages
1,240
Reaction score
297
Location
Chorley
Global warming supporters have struggled to explain why historically CO2 levels in the atmosphere rise slightly after temperatures rise, rather than rising first to precipitate a temperature rise.
Get a cold pint of lager and stand it on the bar and all is explained. As the temperature of the beer rises the CO2 can no longer stay in solution and after half an hour most of it is in the atmosphere of the pub. That's what happens to the vast amount of CO2 dissolved in the sea. Temperatures rise first and CO2 is released.
But what about man made CO2 from fossil fuels? We know that much of the rise in CO2 is from fossil fuels because of the level of the Carbon 13 isotope. So will CO2 cause a further rise in temperature.
No.
CO2 is at a level of around 400 parts per MILLION! An infinitesimal proportion of the atmosphere. CO2 doesn't act as a blanket, keeping the world warm. Not compared to the only greenhouse gas of any significance. That is water vapour, or clouds, which are not even a gas! When it's cloudy at night, it stays warmer than when the sky is clear. Even in a burning dessert it can freeze at night. Proof!
Global warming is cyclical and sooner or later we will enter a new ice age. Due to the decrease in solar activity we will experience a mini ice age, like in Elizabethan times, in between 4 to 20 years.
:thumb:
 
CO2 inspired global warming aka climate change when it's not playing ball... the greatest scam ever perpetrated on humanity. I've never seen any statistics regarding how many tons of carbon dioxide the brewing industry generates each year, but who cares anyway?
 
Brewing is fairly carbon neutral anyway (at least homebrewing is - I don't know about what those commercial skallywags get up to) as barley plants etc make the grain from CO2 in the air and when we ferment it we're just liberating it back into the atmosphere.
 
I did geology at uni, and we studied this fairly extensively. Global warming and cooling is cyclical, the problem we have at the moment is the speed at which it's happening. It has never increased by such a degree in such a short space of time, ever in earths history. And the only explanation is increased greenhouse gasses, and the only explanation for the sudden increase in greenhouse gasses in human activity. I honestly struggle to see why some people try so hard to deny this simple fact. Its logical, it fits the available evidence, and the vast majority of people in this planet with scientific credentials believe it to be true. What do you get from denying it?
 
I did Geography at uni and the rate of change in so many indicators: global temp, deforestation, mercury in predatory fish, desertification, glacier melt, plastic ocean pollution, species extinction, co2 atmospheric rates, methane release, sea temp change, sea ph change, coral die off. All of them every single one are related to human influence on the environment. The worst part is that every single one of the those changes is negative for the only home we, and the other animals we share this rock with, have.
 
It has never increased by such a degree in such a short space of time, ever in earths history.

Really? All four and a half billion years or however old it's reckoned to be? Lol. And all that intensively cultivated sugar and carbohydrate that we are almost instantly converting to CO2 by brewing, rather than being returned to the earth to re-enter the carbon cycle naturally? Ain't it funny how the recent,alleged uptick in temps commenced around the time of the end of the Little Ice Age? Where's it supposed to go from there - down?
 
Brewing is fairly carbon neutral anyway (at least homebrewing is - I don't know about what those commercial skallywags get up to) as barley plants etc make the grain from CO2 in the air and when we ferment it we're just liberating it back into the atmosphere.

How about all the gallons of clean water we boil?
 
There is so much wrong with the OP, I have to say something :doh:. To frame where I'm coming from, I'm a research scientist currently studying biology, but my training was in physical chemistry. I have, in the past, worked in a research group studying the physical basis of how gasses absorbs infra-red light, using lab-based measurement. I've also worked in an astrophysical chemistry lab studying infra-red light being absorbed by interstellar clouds, using telescope data. Hopefully I can clear up some of the misconceptions in this post, also using beer to illustrate!

CO2 is at a level of around 400 parts per MILLION! An infinitesimal proportion of the atmosphere. CO2 doesn't act as a blanket, keeping the world warm. Not compared to the only greenhouse gas of any significance. That is water vapour, or clouds, which are not even a gas! When it's cloudy at night, it stays warmer than when the sky is clear. Even in a burning dessert it can freeze at night. Proof!

Pre-industrial levels of CO2 was about 275 parts per million (ppm), but since burning fossil fuels this has shot up by 45%, to the level you quoted, 400 ppm.
You're right, this is still a very small proportion, but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter. As an analogy, the proportion of iso-alpha acids in your beer is minuscule, around 40 ppm. However, to take this as "proof" that alpha-acids from hops cannot possibly contribute to the bitterness of your beer would be plain wrong.

Clearly, iso-alpha acids are very potent, and the question to ask about CO2, is how potent is it as capturing energy that would otherwise disappear into space? The earth is radiating infra-red light into space, and greenhouse gasses absorb some of that light and turn into heat in the atmosphere, and a similar process is going on in your beer. Light passes through it, and the amount of light that is captured by your beer depends on your speciality grain. Some grains, like roasted barley, are very potent at absorbing light. So powerful that with less than 5% of it in your grist, no light would pass through and your beer would be completely black. Adding more would make no difference to the colour, it would still be black. Using Duxuk's logic, you might conclude that a tiny 1% roasted barley in your grist would have no effect on the colour, and you'd be wrong. Other grains, like crystal, are not so potent. Even with 100% crystal in your grist, some light would still get through. So, if greenhouse gasses are like speciality malts, what components make up the grist in the sky? Is our atmosphere more of a porter or a pale ale? How has upping the CO2 by 45% changed the 'colour' of our planet? Just as we can hold up our pint and judge how much light is passing through it, we can send a telescope out to space, point it towards us, and record the spectrum of our planet. Time to look at some real data:

spect.lw.jpg


The above is the infra-red spectrum of our planet, showing how much energy is radiating away into space and being picked up by the telescope at different wavelengths. If we didn't have an atmosphere, then this graph would look like the dotted line marked 320 K (because this). At some frequencies, the measured radiation is the same as this curve, like the region marked ATM window, showing that there are no gasses capturing the energy at those wavelengths. At other frequencies we can see that our atmosphere is capturing some of the infra-red that would otherwise radiate away. For instance, at around 1050 cm-1 is a dip caused by ozone (O3). Now ozone is very potent at capturing energy in the atmosphere. It is truly the black malt of the atmospheric gasses. Luckily, it forms only a tenth of 1 ppm in the atmosphere; the reason it doesn't have much effect is because it makes up so little of our celestial grist. Another potent one is methane (CH4), which absorbs energy at around 1300 cm-1, and quite a lot of it considering it is there in only 2ppm. Duxuk is right when he says that water is a very important greenhouse gas, as it is absorbing quite a lot of energy below 600 cm-1 and above 1400 cm-1. However, at 10000 ppm, there is loads of it, so it is more of a carapils, and nowhere near as important as climate change deniers would have you believe.

Now, you can't have not noticed the elephant in the room. That massive dip at 650-750 cm-1, right where the peak of the dotted line should be. That is the CO2 absorption. There is no downplaying it. CO2 is absolutely critical in determining how much energy our atmosphere is letting go. It is the chocolate malt of the greenhouse gasses. In pre-industrial times, that dip would've been significantly higher, the atmospheric equivalent of 2% chocolate in the grain bill, a nice English bitter if you like. Human CO2 release means we now have a brown ale, and we are heading towards porter territory. Some people, namely those with financial connections to the oil industry, suggest that we just keep pumping out CO2 and hit the floor. Once we get to a dark stout, or 700 ppm CO2 thereabouts, then all the energy at those wavelengths will be retained in the atmosphere. Above that level, we could pump as much CO2 into the air as we like and have no further effect on global warming, just as once you get to 10% chocolate malt, adding more won't make any significant difference to the colour of the beer, as it is already black. Suffice to say, pretty much all climate scientists believe that this would be insanity and cause havoc with our weather and ability to produce food.

Anyway, with that central error dealt with, I'll quickly address the rest.

Global warming supporters have struggled to explain why historically CO2 levels in the atmosphere rise slightly after temperatures rise, rather than rising first to precipitate a temperature rise.

No they haven't. No reputable climate scientist has ever claimed that CO2 has to come first. Or, for that matter, denied that changes in temperature can cause the absorption or release of CO2 from the oceans, and thus that temperatures can trigger changes in CO2. This comment is completely misrepresentation. Temp increases do cause CO2 increases, which drive further temp increases, until a new equilibrium in reached. Read a book.


Global warming is cyclical and sooner or later we will enter a new ice age. Due to the decrease in solar activity we will experience a mini ice age, like in Elizabethan times, in between 4 to 20 years.
:thumb:

Yes, we are heading for an ice age. If CO2 had no effect then the world should be getting cooler. It isn't, and there is a reason for that.
 
How about all the gallons of clean water we boil?

Yes of course. And transport of ingredients, plus making malt in the first place, plus growing the crops, tractors, fertilisers etc.

Of course i'm sat here typing on my computer and you certainly wouldn't need to have a degree in maths to work out that out of total household electricity usage, boiling your wort wouldn't even be on the radar.
 
Cheers Ian very informative. Do you have any opinion or facts about peoples claims that warming will be good for the earth and claim that when the earth was hotter than it is now it resulted in higher rain fall and deserts were full of vegetation?
 
Cheers Ian very informative. Do you have any opinion or facts about peoples claims that warming will be good for the earth and claim that when the earth was hotter than it is now it resulted in higher rain fall and deserts were full of vegetation?

I can't claim to be particularly well informed about natural history, nor about what happens to the excess energy being captured by the atmosphere, the latter being scientifically a much harder question to answer. I gather that the earth has had long periods being significantly hotter than it is now and life flourished during these periods. Those changes were gradual, with temperatures shifting slowly over thousands of years, and giving life time to adjust. What is happening now is completely different. Almost a degree in the last 200 years, half a degree in the last 40 years alone. These are the sorts of changes you would expect to see over geological timescales, not over a few generations.
 
Water vapour is still thousands of times better at insulating our biosphere than any or indeed all of the so called greenhouse gases. That's why we don't need to worry. If, for example, CO2 captures heat radiating from the Earth then it captures far more radiating from the sun. Much of which will emit back into space. So the more CO2 the less heat will reach the surface.
Once more, this is insignificant compared to the effect of water vapour.
Too much money has been invested in so called global warming and too many fortunes have been fraudulently made (especially by politicians!). I don't expect the lies to stop any time soon.
The hottest June since 1976 is, of course, proof positive of global warming. Whilst the 10 cold summers in the north of England are an expected anomaly. According to many an expert with a degree in geography.
 
Yes of course. And transport of ingredients, plus making malt in the first place, plus growing the crops, tractors, fertilisers etc.

Of course i'm sat here typing on my computer and you certainly wouldn't need to have a degree in maths to work out that out of total household electricity usage, boiling your wort wouldn't even be on the radar.

I think it would be on the radar, heating water for brewing and clean up is quite energy hungry compared to powering lighting and technology.
It would certainly be enough to take brewing quite a long way from carbon neutral.
 
Can you spot why "temperatures have risen faster than at any time in history"?
Mt pinatubo.jpg

That's right. The Mt. Pinatubo anomaly!

BTW I'm not posting to annoy everyone. I'm just seeing if you're all awake. Having said that I take the view as a scientist that the liberals have taken GW on as a "truth" and as we are mostly aware, liberals believe you are free to have any view you wish. As long as it is the same as theirs!

Just a minute. This was prepared by someone called Randy Mann. Must be a wind up!
 
If, for example, CO2 captures heat radiating from the Earth then it captures far more radiating from the sun.

Not true. The sun is a lot hotter than the earth, so the light coming from it is of a much higher frequency - mostly visible wavelengths, but also plenty of UV and high-frequency infra-red. These wavelengths interact very differently with CO2 compared to those being emitted by the earth which I was talking about in the earlier post. Here is how our atmosphere absorbs sunlight:
Solar_Spectrum.png


As you can see, the CO2 absorption only affect the tiny bit at the bottom right of the graph. CO2 is transparent to sunlight over the vast majority of wavelengths. Contrast that with the spectrum in my earlier post, where CO2 absorbs a very significant proportion of the energy radiating from the earth, and it becomes clear that there is a major asymmetry here in how CO2 reacts to radiation from the earth than it does to radiation from the sun.

The reason scientists accept the reality of global warming is because the evidence demonstrates it to be true. Look at it! There is no need to resort to conspiracy theories.
 
"...the liberals have taken GW on as a "truth" and as we are mostly aware, liberals believe you are free to have any view you wish. As long as it is the same as theirs!"

No one said you weren't entitled to your opinion. We're saying your opinion is factually wrong.
 
Back
Top