Help me understand flavours

[Shominy]

Hi all, first post after having lurked for a good while.

I am trying to broaden my horizons in terms of what beers I buy whilst waiting for my own brews to ferment as well as then reusing the bottles they come in. I have noticed flavours I like and do not like and which beers tend to have these flavours. I want to take this information and use it to ensure that the beers I brew myself do not accidentally end up tasting like the beers I don't like.

For instance, most things that would fall into the category of an English pale ale like Bass, Pedigree, Tribute and London Pride I am quite fond of and enjoy. There are then beers like Bishops Finger, Fullers ESB and Theakston Old Peculier which I don't seem to like as much. The former have a lighter, more biscuity and aromatic hop profile whilst the latter seem to have a richer, bolder character to them and are usually a bit darker. My question is this: If you were to brew clones of these recipes yourself would there be a pattern in terms of what ingredients are being used which would show what it was that I didn't like about them? I can only imagine it is some particular malts and the amounts of them in the recipes which I don't seem to like as the hop tastes are not overwhelming by any stretch.

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Session]

This an interesting one!
It’s made more interesting by the fact that ESB and London Pride are almost exactly the same beer...

http://allaboutbeer.com/quirks-of-brewing-parti-gyle-brewing/
Fullers use a partigyle system whereby they make one big mash and draw off wort at different SGs. ESB is drawn off before Pride, so is slightly stronger, but as far as I am aware both beers come out of the same mash tun, and use identical ingredients... perhaps it’s the mouthfeel/strength that you dislike?

I would probably suggest looking up clone recipes for the beers you enjoy, and compare them to the ones you dislike. You will probably start to see common patterns of ABV, specialty malts, hop varieties etc which may give you a better idea of what you’d like to brew with in future.

 

[An Ankoù]

This an interesting one!
It’s made more interesting by the fact that ESB and London Pride are almost exactly the same beer...

It is an extremely interesting point particularly as you're spot on about the part-gyle issue. I would prefer the beers that Shominy considers second best, and would only drink his favourites if there were nothing else going, but that's just a matter of taste. Knowing that ESB and London Pride come from the same mash tun, I had never made the link; they are entirely different beers to my palate. Even Chiswick tastes different to Pride so Shominy's onto something. Not sure what it is, though.

 

[Shominy]

It is an extremely interesting point particularly as you're spot on about the part-gyle issue. I would prefer the beers that Shominy considers second best, and would only drink his favourites if there were nothing else going, but that's just a matter of taste. Knowing that ESB and London Pride come from the same mash tun, I had never made the link; they are entirely different beers to my palate. Even Chiswick tastes different to Pride so Shominy's onto something. Not sure what it is, though.

Very interesting about Fuller's practices. I didn't know that and as you mentioned, ESB and London Pride taste totally different to me so just shows that clearly a small change in what is done can affect how the final beer tastes dramatically. It's hard to describe exactly what makes a beer better to my palate. Hobgoblin is another beer that I just don't like very much. Newcastle Brown is one I do like. The list could go on.

I'm only doing kits at the moment as I'm pretty new to brewing although I have spent more time than any sane person would reading up on it. I am hoping to progress to all grain, probably via BIAB. As Session mentioned, I do tend to prefer lower ABV beers, 4%-4.5% is what I usually find the most satisfying so maybe it's got something to do with the alcohol levels aof the beers which is affecting my preferences.

 

[Sadfield]

Knowing that ESB and London Pride come from the same mash tun, I had never made the link; they are entirely different beers to my palate. Even Chiswick tastes different to Pride so Shominy's onto something. Not sure what it is, though.

Chiswick and ESB are hopped with Target when they pitch the yeast, London Pride isn't. OGs are 1.034, 1.055 and 1.040 respectively.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

For instance, most things that would fall into the category of an English pale ale like Bass, Pedigree, Tribute and London Pride I am quite fond of and enjoy. There are then beers like Bishops Finger, Fullers ESB and Theakston Old Peculier which I don't seem to like as much. The former have a lighter, more biscuity and aromatic hop profile whilst the latter seem to have a richer, bolder character to them and are usually a bit darker. My question is this: If you were to brew clones of these recipes yourself would there be a pattern in terms of what ingredients are being used which would show what it was that I didn't like about them?

Getting back to the subject at hand - in style terms, you like best bitters and are less keen on strong bitters. There's three main differences between them :

Strong bitters generally have more speciality malts, in particular darker forms of crystal malt which tends more to the raisiny end of the spectrum. Something like the Fuller's beers have 7.2% light crystal, best/ordinary bitters up north are typically more like 2-3% (and in the case of Boddies, 0%). Sugar can act as "anti-crystal" to an extent, lightening the beer. Traditionally British beer had 5-15% invert sugar, but it's become a bit unfashionable in some quarters due to CAMRA thinking that brewing with sugar means you are aiming to recreate Watney Red. Golden syrup is a reasonable homebrew approximation to commercial invert #1.

There's more alcohol in strong bitters (duh), which adds to the rich mouthfeel.

Although strong bitters may not have much less bitterness in absolute terms than a best bitter, they usually taste significantly less bitter as the extra malt "dilutes" the effect of the bitterness. The best way to think about this is the bitterness ratio, or BU:GU. You work it out by dividing the Bittering Units (in IBU) by the Gravity Units (the last few digits of the OG).

So for instance if Pride has 30IBU and an OG of 1.040 then BU:GU = 30/40 = 0.75

Whereas ESB is 35 IBU and 1.055, making its BU:GU = 35/55 = 0.64

So Pride will taste more bitter than ESB, even though it is less bitter in absolute terms. I wouldn't get too hung up on the Fuller's range as a benchmark in this context as it gets complicated - it's not just the partigyle, but they have two separate mash vessels which can have different ingredients in them, and they end up blending worts from the two vessels in different proportions, as well as mixing first and second runnings as in a traditional partigyle. And more generally Thames Valley bitters tend to maybe 0.10-0.15 lower BU:GU than northern bitters (probably a combination of local taste and no sparklers), which means the southern beers are closer to the BU:GU you'd expect of a strong bitter.

 

[Shominy]

Snip

Thanks for the detailed reply and you're quite right in everything you say. Particularly the part about more alcohol leading to a richer mouthfeel. I think if I had to describe why I prefer the weaker beers to the stronger ones it's that richer, more alcoholic taste that I don't like quite as much in a strong bitter.

When it comes to all grain brewing and my own recipes I think it'll just be a bit of trial and error.

 

[Drunkula]

When it comes to all grain brewing and my own recipes I think it'll just be a bit of trial and error.

This is my absolute problem with brewing books and tutorials. They tell you how and what but never why. If I wrote a brewing book it would be about breaking down the ingredients for every recipe and saying what they bring to the recipe and what you can expect of them in different situations and why you shouldn't use them if they wouldn't give back what you imagined. I just don't have enough experience.

That's why I think 'Designing Great Beers' by Ray Daniels is the biggest lie of a title ever. It should be called "Great Big Spreadsheet of Things: there you go, do something with that, I'm off down the boozer."

 

[strange-steve]

If I wrote a brewing book...

I for one would read that book

 

[Shominy]

This is my absolute problem with brewing books and tutorials. They tell you how and what but never why. If I wrote a brewing book it would be about breaking down the ingredients for every recipe and saying what they bring to the recipe and what you can expect of them in different situations and why you shouldn't use them if they wouldn't give back what you imagined. I just don't have enough experience.

That's why I think 'Designing Great Beers' by Ray Daniels is the biggest lie of a title ever. It should be called "Great Big Spreadsheet of Things: there you go, do something with that, I'm off down the boozer."

You're not wrong. I've read plenty about homebrewing over the last 7 or 8 years even though I've never actually done much of it and there does seem to be a lack of information when it comes to the 'why' as you say. I've read 'Brewing Classic Styles' cover to cover more than once and whilst it's a great tool for the homebrewer it doesn't give you all that much information to go and utilise to make your own beers in those classic styles. If you ever get round to writing that book I'll have a copy!

 

[DavidHatton]

This an interesting one!
It’s made more interesting by the fact that ESB and London Pride are almost exactly the same beer...

http://allaboutbeer.com/quirks-of-brewing-parti-gyle-brewing/
Fullers use a partigyle system whereby they make one big mash and draw off wort at different SGs. ESB is drawn off before Pride, so is slightly stronger, but as far as I am aware both beers come out of the same mash tun, and use identical ingredients... perhaps it’s the mouthfeel/strength that you dislike?

I would probably suggest looking up clone recipes for the beers you enjoy, and compare them to the ones you dislike. You will probably start to see common patterns of ABV, specialty malts, hop varieties etc which may give you a better idea of what you’d like to brew with in future.

Didn't see this before I posted my Parti-Gyle thread, It has an interview with John Keeling, retired headbrewer, and has a good follow up on the maths for Parti-Gyle brewdays.