Help with bitterness

[Leonard_Leonard]

Hello,

I just brewed the below, and while it had a lovely, mild and floral vanilla taste on first swig, after a few beats an aftertaste would emerge right on the back of the tongue of significant bitterness. And it would just stay there for maybe 5 minutes, a sort of back-of-the-tongue bubbling bitterness. I won't say that it was really bad, but it would definitely be improved if it wasn't there.

4.5 Litres / 1 Gallon batch:
Maris Otter 1036 grams
Flaked Oats 58 grams
Flaked Barley 58 grams
(Total 1152 grams)
Hops (Pellets):
Columbus First Wort Hop 2.8 grams
Columbus 60mins 5.7 grams
Columbus 10mins 2.8 grams
Columbus 0mins 11.3 grams
7 days after pitching dry Hop 11.6 grams
(Total Hops 34.2 grams)
Yeast = Safale US 05 11.5 grams

My understanding is that bitterness is caused by early hop additions, so am I right in thinking it is that 2.8+5.7=8.5 gram hop addition at the start that is the cause of this bitterness? It doesn't feel like that is a lot of hops to me, but maybe it is.

I was looking at a BrewDog Dead Pony Club Clone recipe the other day (based on the recipe BrewDog post on their website in PDF format) and the hop additions were 60mins 2 grams, 30mins 3 grams and a dry hop of 38 grams. Dead Pony Club has always been in my mind quite a hoppy beer, however I find these tiny hop additions to be mind bogglingly low. I guess they are backloading the addition in the dry hop to hit the aroma while having little to no bitterness?

Thanks

Luke

 

[terrym]

I suggest you punch your recipe into the BF calculator and find out what predicted bitterness your beer should have had.
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/calculatorLearning to use a calculator is in my view an essential part of any AG brewer's toolkit, and opens up all sorts of possibilities from checking recipes by others, to formulating your own recipes.

 

[Sandimas]

Columbus is a very high AA hop, so as @terrym said plus the figures into a calculator to check the bitterness.

I found Columbus and Chinook too bitter for my liking and got the taste you describe, I now tend to us Cascade and Amarillo instead as they are less harsher to my taste.

 

[jceg316]

I find columbus can be quite a harsh bittering hop, Polaris is a really good and under rated bittering hop which I find gives a smoother bitterness. As mentioned would be good to see the IBU of the recipe.

Also what temperature are you fermenting at? Cooler ferments tend to lead to a cleaner flavour and I find can round off the bitterness a bit better.

 

[Buffers brewery]

Know what you mean. I've dropped the 60 minute hop additions from all my brews for the last year. Start at 30 minutes then 15 and then at flame out. My beers are softer (if that doesn't sound too girly) as a consequence and more to my taste.

 

[An Ankoù]

Hello,

I just brewed the below, and while it had a lovely, mild and floral vanilla taste on first swig, after a few beats an aftertaste would emerge right on the back of the tongue of significant bitterness. And it would just stay there for maybe 5 minutes, a sort of back-of-the-tongue bubbling bitterness. I won't say that it was really bad, but it would definitely be improved if it wasn't there.

4.5 Litres / 1 Gallon batch:
Maris Otter 1036 grams
Flaked Oats 58 grams
Flaked Barley 58 grams
(Total 1152 grams)
Hops (Pellets):
Columbus First Wort Hop 2.8 grams
Columbus 60mins 5.7 grams
Columbus 10mins 2.8 grams
Columbus 0mins 11.3 grams
7 days after pitching dry Hop 11.6 grams
(Total Hops 34.2 grams)
Yeast = Safale US 05 11.5 grams

My understanding is that bitterness is caused by early hop additions, so am I right in thinking it is that 2.8+5.7=8.5 gram hop addition at the start that is the cause of this bitterness? It doesn't feel like that is a lot of hops to me, but maybe it is.

I was looking at a BrewDog Dead Pony Club Clone recipe the other day (based on the recipe BrewDog post on their website in PDF format) and the hop additions were 60mins 2 grams, 30mins 3 grams and a dry hop of 38 grams. Dead Pony Club has always been in my mind quite a hoppy beer, however I find these tiny hop additions to be mind bogglingly low. I guess they are backloading the addition in the dry hop to hit the aroma while having little to no bitterness?

Thanks

Luke

I don't use a calculator I use a rule of thumb method recommended by Brupaks and by wheeler. If your hops contain 16% alpha acid you're looking at 65+ IBUs, which, I would say is much too high for the style you're putting together with those grains. A calculator based on Tinseth is going to indicate 95+ IBUs.
It tastes too bitter because it is to bitter.

 

[matt76]

Hey @Leonard_Leonard ,

As @terrym says it's worthwhile getting the hang of a brewing calculator to work out what you should expect to get - there are loads to choose from.

For a new brewer I suspect software like this is, with all due respect, a bit easier then the method @An Ankoù uses, but he's spot on, your beer tastes too bitter because it is too bitter.

Hops add bitterness, flavour and aroma in different proportions. Different hops may be better suited to each of these things, but generally a longer boil means more bitterness, while a shorter boil leans more towards preserving the flavour & aroma.

I've used Columbus before but not on its own and it's a hop I'd like to re-evaluate. Properly planned I don't see why you couldn't make a decent IPA with it.

But even if you boil for 60mins you don't necessarily have to start adding hops art this point. My "Podium" IPA for example uses a technique called late-hopping starting with the first addition with only 20mins left in the boil...

The idea is you add more hops but later in the boil to get the required bitterness while preserving the delicate flavour and aroma compounds.

A few other tips I can give you - whereas most brew around 20L-ish I tend to do only 10-12L, and you're doing even less...

I tend to work in grain amounts no smaller than 25g, and ideally more like 125 or 250g amounts. Over time it just saves on having random amounts of odds & sods left over.

Similarly I work in 5g amounts of hops, same reasoning, and you won't take notice the small difference in bitterness amounts. For your smaller brews you might need to go a bit smaller then this though, maybe 2.5g amounts.

A pack of dry yeast (10g or 11.5g) is enough to ferment 20+ litres, so you're way over-pitching. With allow yeasts I tend to pitch 5g into my 10-12L batches then use a plastic clip (IKEA ones) and store the remainder in the fridge. It just makes it go a bit further (for lagers I pitch a whole pack though).

If you haven't already it's worth investing in a set of jewellers (aka drug dealer) scales - essential for accurately measuring small quantities of hops and yeast etc. But for grain the kitchen scales will be fine.

Good luck, ask questions, keep practicing

 

[Leonard_Leonard]

Hi all,

Sorry about the delay in posting again. Thanks so much for all the feedback, I really appreciate it. There was a lot to unpack here!

- Took your advice and punched this into some brewing software and it has an IBU of 70! Which is about double what my favourite commercially available ale is. Playing around with the numbers indicates that I should certainly be scaling back the amount of hops I'm adding at the beginning (to end with a 30ish IBU).

- @jceg316 I'm fermenting at room temperature in London, UK which is about 20C at the moment (although fast dropping with winter coming and the heating turning on). Unfortunately for me temperature of the fermentation isn't really something I can control because I haven't got the room (or money?) to buy a temperature regulating device to put my carboy in.

- @Buffers brewery and @matt76 it is very interesting to hear you've dropped the first addition. This starting making me wonder: is there a reason other than hops to boil the wort for an hour? For example, if I were to say 'OK, my first hop addition is going to be 20mins before the end of the boil', why not just add them immediately and only boil 20mins? I'm thinking here that this would be a great way to speed up the time a brew-day takes. I'd be interested to here is something else is also going on in the wort while it is being boiled (other than sterilisation) that means boiling for an hour is optimal.

- @matt76 I would also be interested to hear about any impact adding too much yeast would have (if any at all?). I was aware that the packet of yeast said this is for 23L, but I just thought - well any excess yeast will die because there won't be enough sugar (i.e. food) to sustain it all. Does adding too much yeast like this impact flavour? I did think it smelt surprisingly yeasty when I first poured it, given that Safale-05 is supposedly a very neutral yeast.

Again, really appreciate the input. As much as it was bitter, it was definitely the best brew I've ever done and still very drinkable. Can't wait to get the next one going!

Cheers,

Luke

 

[Clint]

Keep your fv warm by chucking your Mrs best coat over it...

 

[terrym]

- @jceg316 I'm fermenting at room temperature in London, UK which is about 20C at the moment (although fast dropping with winter coming and the heating turning on). Unfortunately for me temperature of the fermentation isn't really something I can control because I haven't got the room (or money?) to buy a temperature regulating device to put my carboy in.

If you have space for a water bath, they might be a bit crude but they are effective, and inexpensive to set up, and you can pack them away when done
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/how-to-set-up-a-water-bath-for-your-fv.66407/

 

[Buffers brewery]

if I were to say 'OK, my first hop addition is going to be 20mins before the end of the boil', why not just add them immediately and only boil 20mins?

This might help...

https://beerandbrewing.com/time-to-boil/

 

[matt76]

Keep your fv warm by chucking your Mrs best coat over it...

This

And in addition, you can brew with the seasons and choose beer styles/yeast strains with a temperature that suits the weather (from memory I think us-05 has a really wide temperature range). Temperature control is very handy but it's not the be all and end all, you can certainly go a long way without it As @terrym says above, you can use a water bath for example (done this many times).

To answer your questions @Leonard_Leonard :

I believe it's possible to pitch too much yeast but I don't know exactly. To be fair you probably want to be more concerned about pitching too little yeast. I can tell you for sure from experience half a pack of ale yeast (i.e. 5g) is plenty for my 10-12L batches, so you should be fine with about 2.5-3g in 4.5L (but you'll need decent scales to measure it accurately!). It's really a question of pragmatism - if one pack of yeast can comfortably do 2 brews (or 3-4 in your case) then why use more then necessary?

The reason you need to boil for a reasonable length of time is to drive off certain chemicals that can cause off flavours. However, what length of time is actually needed is a matter of conjecture, especially with modern malts.

What I can tell you from experience is for the last year I've been doing 30 minute boils (about 30-35 brews in total) with no ill effects. But if I copy a recipe using a "standard" 60min boil then I need to use a recipe calculator to recalculate bittering additions added before the 30 min mark.

But you're absolutely correct - a shorter boil, combined with several other time saving steps have dramatically shortened my brew days

 

[jceg316]

Whilst the temperature isn't too warm, temp fluctuations can have adverse effects on yeast performance. However, I'm going on a bit of a tangent here in relation to the issue you have. Bitterness is probably not from this.

I started homebrewing in London and it has very hard water. All my pales and IPAs were violently bitter. I'd say the water profile is the main culprit (unless you're using bottled or RO water?). I can brew dark beers without conditioning the water, but anything hoppy needs a different water profile.

 

[Clint]

Water treatment...

 

[jceg316]

Water treatment...

It's the answer to everything.

 

[matt76]

I started homebrewing in London and it has very hard water. All my pales and IPAs were violently bitter. I'd say the water profile is the main culprit (unless you're using bottled or RO water?). I can brew dark beers without conditioning the water, but anything hoppy needs a different water profile.

I agree with you @jceg316 , water could well be a factor here (mega hard water here so I know what you mean!).

However, I would suggest for a new brewer it's probably a bit much to dive immediately into water treatment unless that's the OP's thing. It's fine once you've got your head around it but it's a steep learning curve - I didn't even bother with water treatment until my 15th batch, and it probably took another 10 brews or so before I finally got the hang of it!

As the OP has already stated the original beer was 70 IBUs. Probably better IMO to recalculate the hop additions and rebrew and get the basic recipe right before fine tuning the water profile.

 

[Leon103]

Sounds like it could be astringency coming through.

 

[jceg316]

I agree with you @jceg316 , water could well be a factor here (mega hard water here so I know what you mean!).

However, I would suggest for a new brewer it's probably a bit much to dive immediately into water treatment unless that's the OP's thing. It's fine once you've got your head around it but it's a steep learning curve - I didn't even bother with water treatment until my 15th batch, and it probably took another 10 brews or so before I finally got the hang of it!

As the OP has already stated the original beer was 70 IBUs. Probably better IMO to recalculate the hop additions and rebrew and get the basic recipe right before fine tuning the water profile.

Yeah, water chemistry can be awkward and I still struggle a bit with it, but for some reason chemistry doesn't come naturally to me. It does sound like the IBU level is quite high, especially with Columbus. I'd agree to first try either lowering the IBU and/or trying a smoother bittering hop first and see how the beer comes out.