Pearl Harbour

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Brianbrewed

Brianbrewed

Landlord.
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Nice one! Always looking for new history podcasts! I went to Pearl Harbor when I was 10, bit young but it was a great experience. Still an oil slick from the Oklahoma's oil tanks. Or was it Arizona?
 
USS Arizona
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Very sad event.
The successful attack on Pearl Harbor could have easily been prevented and was directly caused by the Navy Admirals not following their own Navy playbook. The fleet should not have been sitting there, unprepared, during times of hostile negotiations with another country, Japan in this case..
It's not even a question of needing advanced knowledge of strategy but one of common sense. Therefore, I wouldn't call it a "surprise attack" but a "strategically possible attack" that the Nave should have been prepared for.
 
DavidDetroit said:
Navy Admirals not following their own Navy playbook. The fleet should not have been sitting there, unprepared, during times of hostile negotiations with another country, Japan in this case..
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In fairness to Kimmel, an naval air attack on this scale was never envisonaged before.

US policy makers were expecting an attack, but were expecting the Japanese to expand into European colonies in Southeast Asia or attack the American colony of the Philipines.

There was also a latent racism in the European/American world than the Japanese were not capable of organising an attack of this sort (this was ignoring the victory of Japan over Russia previously).

The extraordinary thing was, there were many Japanese commanders who very pessimistic of their chances against the US.
Indeed, Yamaoto (commander of the IJN & planner of Pearl Harbour) lived in the US and witnessed the magnitude of US industrial potential compared to Japan.
 
DavidDetroit said:
The fleet should not have been sitting there, unprepared, during times of hostile negotiations with another country, Japan in this case..
Click to expand...
The US Pacific fleet, before this, was normally stationed in Los Angeles, San Diego or San Francisco. The reason FDR ordered the Pacific Fleet to be based in Pearl Harbour was as a warning to Japan (Pearl Harbour is half between the US & Japan).

If you have the stomach for it, I reccommend the Dan Carlin series on this. He goes from the Meji restoration, the Japanese victory over Russia, their invasion of China and finally the dropping of the A-Bombs on Nagasaki & Hiroshima.
A horrific period of history.
 
Brianbrewed said:
The US Pacific fleet, before this, was normally stationed in Los Angeles, San Diego or San Francisco. The reason FDR ordered the Pacific Fleet to be based in Pearl Harbour was as a warning to Japan (Pearl Harbour is half between the US & Japan).

If you have the stomach for it, I reccommend the Dan Carlin series on this. He goes from the Meji restoration, the Japanese victory over Russia, their invasion of China and finally the dropping of the A-Bombs on Nagasaki & Hiroshima.
A horrific period of history.
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Yes, a good series that, i'd recommend too! His WW1 podcast was good too.
 
@Brianbrewed
All you say is fine and good, sounds similar to some of the things I've read.
My point is that the Navy violated its own policy by leaving their ships in port during hostile negotiations. Whatever else was going on doesn't matter (thoughts,, feelings, intuition, etc.); it was an inexcusable error and there is no justification for it. A competent Admiral would not have made that mistake. Without that event, the war with Japan would have gone much differently.
 
DavidDetroit said:
@Brianbrewed
All you say is fine and good, sounds similar to some of the things I've read.
My point is that the Navy violated its own policy by leaving their ships in port during hostile negotiations. Whatever else was going on doesn't matter (thoughts,, feelings, intuition, etc.); it was an inexcusable error and there is no justification for it. A competent Admiral would not have made that mistake. Without that event, the war with Japan would have gone much differently.
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I'm no expert in the Navy (or anything else for that matter) but how the US Navy could expect an attack from 6 aircraft carriers. Considering nothing at this scale ever happened before. (The Royal Navy had crippled the mediterrian fleet earlier using a similar tactic. But nothing near the scale of Pearl Harbour).


From the top of my head, the Battle of Midway was six months after this and that engagment destroyed Japanese Naval superiority for the rest of the war.

If you have time, listen to some of the podcasts. They are quite illuminating.
 
pilgrimhudd said:
Not seen that one, i'll have to look it up. If you're in to history have you come across 'The rest is history' with Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook?
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Is that 'Persian Fire' Tom Holland. No I have not. I will give it a listen.

All Murray (Pub Landlord) & Jame Holland have a great series called 'We have ways of making of talk.'
All WW2 and a lot of fun.
 
Brianbrewed said:
Is that 'Persian Fire' Tom Holland. No I have not. I will give it a listen.

All Murray (Pub Landlord) & Jame Holland have a great series called 'We have ways of making of talk.'
All WW2 and a lot of fun.
Click to expand...

No, that's one of his books it's this one, I listen on spotify, the one on Nero had me in tears of laughter.

‎The Rest Is History on Apple Podcasts

Yes I have listened to pretty much all of 'we have ways' it's pretty good although James Holland's voice gets on my nerves eventually! 🤣
 
Brianbrewed said:
I'm no expert in the Navy (or anything else for that matter) but how the US Navy could expect an attack from 6 aircraft carriers.
Click to expand...
That puts us in the same boat (pun).
From my viewpoint, stripping away all the trimmings, in spite of anything else that was going on, the US Navy still didn't follow it's own protocols of what was laid down to do during hostile negotiations (ships at sea). I won't keep repeating that, I promise, but it is my only point I'm making.
I hardly trust what any government says, especially when it comes to talking about massive mistakes that have been made.
I recall reading about Midway. I was going to mention that the US had to turn the tide through the air. The US Navy's reputation was destroyed as well because of Pearly Harbor.
 
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