Rye IPA - Nelson Sauvin, Citra, Ahtanum?

[ezraburke]

http://byo.com/issues/item/1702-imperial-ipa-style-profile

"My good friend Mike "Tasty" McDole has won more than a few major awards for his imperial IPA, so I asked him what he considers to be the single most important aspect of brewing this style. He told me, "This is a very hop forward beer and you cannot achieve that goal unless you keep the malt character from getting in the way. The best way to do that is to use simple sugar."

Russian River Brewing Company's Pliny the Elder, which many consider the finest example of this style, also uses simple sugar to ensure a dry, light malt character. I feel the addition of simple sugar (corn sugar, cane sugar, beet sugar) is critical to making a great example of this style. Put aside any fears you might have that adding sugar will make your beer too thin or "cidery." That is only an issue when using a very large percentage of sugar. Target around 10% of the grist as simple sugar. These easily fermentable sugars also assist in achieving a low finishing gravity. If you're an extract brewer and need more attenuation, replace more of the base malt extract with simple sugar. If you need less attenuation, then shift the percentage toward the base malt."

Interesting.... Ok, altered grain bill below:

Boil Time: 70 min
Batch Size: 15 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 18 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.085
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.102
Final Gravity: 1.020
ABV (standard): 10.7%
IBU (tinseth): 88.59
SRM (morey): 13.31

FERMENTABLES:
3 kg - German - Pilsner (43.8%)
1 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (14.6%)
0.75 kg - American - Rye (10.9%)
0.75 kg - Torrified Wheat (10.9%)
0.65 kg - German - CaraMunich II (9.5%)
0.5 kg - United Kingdom - Wheat (7.3%)
0.2 kg - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (2.9%)

HOPS:
40 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 70 min, IBU: 63.91
50 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 24.68
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days
25 g - Ahtanum, Type: Pellet, AA: 6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Sparge, Temp: 68 C, Time: 75 min, Amount: 19 L
Starting Mash Thickness: 3.1 L/kg

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Protafloc, Time: 5 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Boil

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05

 

[clibit]

The two recipes at the bottom of that article have 7% and 14% corn sugar.

 

[TheRedDarren]

I'd stick with the Pilsner malt, Maris otter, rye and maybe one of the wheat options if you really wanted to.
Defo include 10% sugar.
I'm worried that it'll be way to malty to appreciate the hops.

 

[clibit]

I'd stick with the Pilsner malt, Maris otter, rye and maybe one of the wheat options if you really wanted to.
Defo include 10% sugar.
I'm worried that it'll be way to malty to appreciate the hops.

I would agree with 10% sugar. :thumb:

Williams Bros probably use UK lager malt and UK pale crystal.

 

[ezraburke]

I would agree with 10% sugar. :thumb:

Williams Bros probably use UK lager malt and UK pale crystal.

Added an extra dry hop with Nelson Sauvin, adjusted bill - discarded caramunich, added Vienna and dextrose.


Boil Time: 70 min
Batch Size: 15 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 18 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.091
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.109
Final Gravity: 1.021
ABV (standard): 11.64%
IBU (tinseth): 83.67
SRM (morey): 6.58

FERMENTABLES:
3 kg - German - Pilsner (43.5%)
1 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (14.5%)
0.75 kg - American - Rye (10.9%)
0.75 kg - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (10.9%)
0.75 kg - Torrified Wheat (10.9%)
0.65 kg - German - Vienna (9.4%)

HOPS:
40 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 70 min, IBU: 60.36
50 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 23.31
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days
25 g - Ahtanum, Type: Pellet, AA: 6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
10 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 15 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Sparge, Temp: 67.5 C, Time: 70 min, Amount: 19 L
Starting Mash Thickness: 3.1 L/kg

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Protafloc, Time: 5 min, Type: Water Agt, Use: Boil

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05

 

[clibit]

Your OG keeps going up - do you not want to replace malt with sugar rather than add sugar to the malt quantity you had?

We all have different taste, but in my experience beers over 10% are affected heavily by the alcohol content and not for the better, usually. If it was me, i'd knock it back to 8 - 8.5%. Keeping the grain percentages the same. And I'd keep the crystal malt in.

But it's your beer! Just musing.

 

[TheRedDarren]

Also, don't forget to up your yeast pitch rate, one pack won't attenuate that lot.

 

[ezraburke]

Your OG keeps going up - do you not want to replace malt with sugar rather than add sugar to the malt quantity you had?

We all have different taste, but in my experience beers over 10% are affected heavily by the alcohol content and not for the better, usually. If it was me, i'd knock it back to 8 - 8.5%. Keeping the grain percentages the same. And I'd keep the crystal malt in.

But it's your beer! Just musing.

Clibit, spot on. I forget that simple sugar gives it alcohol as well! Ideally I want this to come in between 8.5 and 9.5% so shooting for the stars with the final countdown *de de de dun de de de de dun!*

____________________________________________________________

Boil Time: 70 min
Batch Size: 15 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 18 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.076
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.092
Final Gravity: 1.017
ABV (standard): 9.74%
IBU (tinseth): 95.63
SRM (morey): 5.82

FERMENTABLES:
2.5 kg - German - Pilsner (43.1%)
0.75 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (12.9%)
0.7 kg - American - Rye (12.1%)
0.6 kg - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (10.3%)
0.75 kg - Torrified Wheat (12.9%)
0.5 kg - German - Vienna (8.6%)

HOPS:
40 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Boil for 70 min, IBU: 68.99
50 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 26.64
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days
25 g - Ahtanum, Type: Pellet, AA: 6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
25 g - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
10 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 15 days

________________________________________________________

I will be getting my mitts on a Kernel Pale Ale Citra, Simcoe Ahtanum in the next few weeks to test the waters with the Ahtanum flavour - it may come out all together. I have interest in using Galaxy as a hop but the pairing with Citra and Nelson Sauvin may not work.

We will see...

As far as the malt bill is concerned I think this discussion has arrived us at it's final iteration - quite pleased with how useful this has been.

 

[clibit]

I will be getting my mitts on a Kernel Pale Ale Citra, Simcoe Ahtanum in the next few weeks to test the waters with the Ahtanum flavour - it may come out all together. I have interest in using Galaxy as a hop but the pairing with Citra and Nelson Sauvin may not work.

We will see...

As far as the malt bill is concerned I think this discussion has arrived us at it's final iteration - quite pleased with how useful this has been.

Yes, I like the look of that malt bill much better now. I'd still take it down to 8 - 8.5% though. Less is more. :lol:

I think the Ahtanum will work. For me, and I may be alone here, Citra is a bit one dimensional, and I prefer Citra beers that contain other aroma hops to add complexity, and Ahtanum should fit that bill well, I reckon. Kernel know what they are doing, Simcoe, Citra and Ahtanum is a sound blend, I reckon. And Nelson should slip in there in place of Simcoe quite successfully, I think.

 

[ezraburke]

Clibit, spot on. I tried a Markies Single Hop Citra IPA last night, very one dimensional as you say. I'd agree that it works as a good base hop before building complexity, and to that end i've altered the recipe again. Malt bill is the same but going to go with 50g Galaxy instead of Ahtanum in the dry hop. Dry hop schedule includes early Citra, Galaxy at the midpoint then Nelson a few days prior to bottling.

My hope is the rye and Nelson Sauvin will bring a pleasantly dry, bitter base beer cemented with spicy and floral Citra before big fruity hits from Galaxy. So goes the theory anyway...

 

[clibit]

Don't fear the Ahtanum. It's being used a lot in place of Cascade apparently - it does a similar job, a bit differently. I have a feeling that Nelson, Citra and Galaxy will be like a world heavyweight title fight with three boxers in the ring. Ali, Tyson, and Fury, perhaps. It could get messy. :lol:

 

[rodabod]

All sounds good to me. I've been away from this thread for a day or two. I found Galaxy a little astringent when I dry hopped a large quantity (75g in 20L?... I'll check) but others have said that it's fine for dry hopping. The aroma and flavour is amazing though. Perhaps I left it in too long as I did use pellets. Will need to check my notes.

 

[ezraburke]

All sounds good to me. I've been away from this thread for a day or two. I found Galaxy a little astringent when I dry hopped a large quantity (75g in 20L?... I'll check) but others have said that it's fine for dry hopping. The aroma and flavour is amazing though. Perhaps I left it in too long as I did use pellets. Will need to check my notes.

Cheers Rod; perhaps we can lower the amount in the dry hop, i want to prevent astringency in this brew as we're going to have a heavy amount of dry hop (85g in 15l of brew) so might reduce this from 50 to 25, take us down to 60g.

How much will dry hopping bitter the beer?

 

[rodabod]

How much will dry hopping bitter the beer?

Well, in theory, not much at all. So I'd maybe take my warning about the galaxy with a pinch of salt, as it could be that I over-extracted them.

Never had any issues with dry hopping using other hops. For something like this, you don't want to be shy with the hops...

 

[ezraburke]

After sampling a few single hop ales over Christmas (Mosaic, Citra, Simcoe, Nelson Sauvin) i eventually plumped for keeping Nelson Sauvin from the original recipe and adding Centennial and Calypso.

We also saw The Force Awakens over the Christmas break, and so i give you...

________________________________________________

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Specialty IPA: Rye IPA
Boil Time: 70 min
Batch Size: 15 liters (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 18 liters
Boil Gravity: 1.076
Efficiency: 70% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.091
Final Gravity: 1.017
ABV (standard): 9.7%
IBU (tinseth): 72.14
SRM (morey): 7.69

FERMENTABLES:
2.5 kg - German - Pilsner (43.1%)
0.5 kg - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (8.6%)
0.7 kg - American - Rye (12.1%)
0.6 kg - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (10.3%)
0.75 kg - Torrified Wheat (12.9%)
0.5 kg - German - Vienna (8.6%)
0.25 kg - United Kingdom - Crystal 30L (4.3%)

HOPS:
40 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: First Wort, IBU: 40.57
50 g - Calypso, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 31.57
25 g - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 10, Use: Dry Hop for 2 days
50 g - Centennial, Type: Pellet, AA: 10, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
25 g - Calypso, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Dry Hop for 10 days
10 g - Nelson Sauvin, Type: Pellet, AA: 12.5, Use: Dry Hop for 15 days

YEAST:
Fermentis / Safale - American Ale Yeast US-05