Wild yeast cider/scrumpy - can I reintroduce wild culture after camden tablet to bulk?

[willinliv]

Hi Folks, actually first year of making cider of any kind, but have made apple wine before. My question is that I wanted to limit chances of getting bad infection in cider so I thought one way might be to use a campden tablet in the bulk of the apple juice I have but then keep a litre aside and leaving this covered in the kitchen have it develop a bit of a wild yeast culture, then reintroduce to the bulk. When I have freshly pressed juice this often goes a bit pleasantly fizzy after a few days. What do other people think about this? From the minimal reading I've done I understand that there are different kinds of yeast and in scrumpy different types come into play at different times in comparison to the monoyeasts we get in packets, so I was wondering that if this would still be the case in the reintroduced culture I am proposing. Any ideas or do people think I should just leave it to nature?

I'm pressing apples in batches from nearby trees, mix of sweet and sourish, freezing, defrosting then pressing. Quantity of juice for batch talking about here approx 25litres.

Thanks, Will

 

[freester]

No expert but my understanding is Campden will 'stun' the yeast and also prevent oxidation (browning) of the juice. So adding some juice will probably fire up the fermentation again.

However I'm not aware of anyone who uses your method. Personally I use two methods. Campdens / Pectolase then pitch yeast and nutrient a day later. OR trad method just juice and let nature take it's course...

Chances of infection in my opinion are minimal. The trad method definitely gives a better tasting (though not always so clear) product, but it isn't so reproducible.

 

[willinliv]

Hi Freester, I think I'll probably go with the trad method and not bother with a campden at all - thinking that even the reintroduced fizzy juice might not have enough eumph to get the ferementation going in the bulk quickly. I've got a first batch already started where I campdened and pitched shop bought yeast. But this other trad batch would be in additon. I've got sooo many books on homebrewing - I need to consult some this weekend. Just out of curiosity, how come you add your nutrient a day later? Thanks for you help, Will

 

[freester]

Understood. Once it's all ready to drink I bet you notice a difference between the 'Trad' and the added yeast. First year I did trad I did a demi john's worth. Now I do the majority trad, I only add yeast if I know I'm going to do another press and need the FVs!

how come you add your nutrient a day later?

The guides I've followed always suggest add the yeast a day later, I've always pitched the yeast with the nutrient. I guess the timing of the nutrient isn't so critical.

 

[freester]

I think the other point to note is Cider making is a lot less complicated than homebrew beer. At it's simplest, press apples wait until spring. I remember the first autumn I made cider and getting really stressed about the process and when to do what, does secondary racking matter etc etc. Bottom line is keep basic cleanliness, keep the fruit flies out of the must, there's little to go wrong. A trad may turn out a bit mousy or cloudy but that's out of your control IMHO...

 

[Shirley Bassett]

Have you ever weighed the post pressed material?

I’m intrigued to see if this freeze thaw method yields more juice.

I made a batch of cider from apples I had stored in boxes in the dark for 10 days. I got 27 litres of juice and ditched 23kg of pressed scrat.

Assuming 1 litre of juice is 1 kg, then i get about 54% yield from just scratting non frozen apples.

[27/(27 + 23)] x 100.

If I’m honest I’m happy with the yield, because I often get 200 + Kg of apples, and don’t really have room for that kind of quantity in a freezer.

 

[An Ankoù]

My question is that I wanted to limit chances of getting bad infection in cider so I thought one way might be to use a campden tablet in the bulk of the apple juice I have but then keep a litre aside and leaving this covered in the kitchen have it develop a bit of a wild yeast culture, then reintroduce to the bulk.

Good morning @willinliv, if I understand correctly, you aim to suppress the wild flora and then reinocculate the cider with a culture of exactly the same yeasts and bugs. I don't see the point of that. For what it's worth, I don't use Campden tablets since I want my cider to have some colour. I might even keep the pomace overnight before pressing. I always get the cider going with a known yeast. I used Mangrove Jack's this year as I had run out of Young's. One sachet per half batch, 12-15 litres, to get a strong fermentation and then top up the fermenter the next day. Never had a bad batch. Cider yeast doesn't seem to stress like beer yeast does.

 

[An Ankoù]

Have you ever weighed the post pressed material?

I’m intrigued to see if this freeze thaw method yields more juice.

I made a batch of cider from apples I had stored in boxes in the dark for 10 days. I got 27 litres of juice and ditched 23kg of pressed scrat.

Assuming 1 litre of juice is 1 kg, then i get about 54% yield from just scratting non frozen apples.

[27/(27 + 23)] x 100.

If I’m honest I’m happy with the yield, because I often get 200 + Kg of apples, and don’t really have room for that kind of quantity in a freezer.

All this talk of freezers makes me think of Ice Cider. I had a bottle from a friend in Québec, who claims the apples freeze on the trees and are then somehow pressed while frozen and thus concentrates the juice. While the latter sounds unlikely, she wasn't able to discuss the technicalities. The cider, though, was delicious as well as being outrageously expensive.