Lager that's not lagered

[BeerCat]

I was listening to a recent Beer Smith podcast where Dr Charlie Bamford was interviewed about beer haze and stability. It was an interesting listen but the thing that pricked my interest was the mention that when he was in charge of brewing the biggest selling lager in the UK (stella) he basically didn't lager it at all as he said it didn't make any difference to modern well produced beer.

After a diacytle rest it was cold crashed to -1°C for 3 days and then packaged and shipped out.

If this is done for Stella I'm sure it will be done for the rest of the maco-brews. So, your pint of lager has likely never been lagered. He didn't say how long it spent in primary.

Whilst I'm no big fan of macro lager they aren't technically bad beers. Interest that you can maybe get away without months in the cold.

I wonder what would happen if you matched this with the quick lager fermentation schedule. Who's to say the big brewers aren't already doing that too!

I was randomly searching the forum and came across this old post. Very interesting. I have found that after 3 days at zero the beer is fairly clear and with another 2 or 3 days with finings added it should be ready. I am sure they must filter it as the taller the tanks the longer it takes to clear at the bottom. I am still fermenting mine for 3 weeks more out of habit but i am sure they drastically reduce that time. Food for thought.

 

[ACBEV]

I think most lager produced in the UK was not lagered, breweries just made a golden ale then filtered and force carbonated.

From reading Ron Pattinson's blog, he has several examples of British lager made like this. Here is an example from Lees brewery...

Rather than miss out on the fun, the set about brewing a Lager of their own. With wildly differing degrees of authenticity. Most breweries just didn’t have the equipment to do the job properly. They could neither decoct nor lager properly. What they ended up doing was brewing a Golden Ale that was filtered and artificially carbonated.
​

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2019/08/lets-brew-1963-lees-lager.html

 

[Ben034]

I think large breweries may also be fermenting under pressure when they make a lager which should reduce the production of esters and therefore reduce the need for any lagering post fermentation. With more advanced home set ups this may also be possible.

As I bottle my lagers, I follow a quick lager schedule (raise temp to ale temps once half way through fermentation) and then "lager" in the bottle for a few weeks after they have carbonated. Also not conventional but seems to work well enough.

I use the

 

[Isolec82]

I used to lager - but not any more. Ferment at lager temps at 10psi until over 50% attenuation then raise temp 3 or 4c until finished fermenting (1 week), cold crash 2 days, and keg. Mash to glass about 3 weeks. Clear and clean tasting.

 

[johncrobinson]

My dad made many great wines and beers,But his lagers well i could only enjoy them with lemonade as a lager shandy.

I have never even tried to make a lager at home,Mainly because of this.

 

[prog99]

My dad made many great wines and beers,But his lagers well i could only enjoy them with lemonade as a lager shandy.

I have never even tried to make a lager at home,Mainly because of this.

I'd give it a go, the kit and ingredients are much better now so you can avoid having to lager.

 

[Wynne]

A number of lager yeasts e.g. Saflager w-34/70 and Magrove Jack’s California Lager can be fermented at room temperature and I have done this successfullyand made drinkable lager. Generally, I use Isolec82’s approach except that I wait until, the yeast is over its growth phase and fermenting away before putting the fermenter under pressure. I read a paper which suggested that applying pressure right from the start puts yeast under more environmental stress but I haven’t ever checked whether this makes any difference in practice.

 

[Isolec82]

Generally, I use Isolec82’s approach except that I wait until, the yeast is over its growth phase and fermenting away before putting the fermenter under pressure

I dont apply any external pressure other than the co2 produced by fermentation - this tends to mean that there is little or no pressure on the yeast until after its intial growth phase.

 

[Wynne]

I use natural carbonation too. Here is a link to an interesting article by Scott Janish and details of the paper I mentioned in my earlier post.

http://scottjanish.com/fermenting-dry-hopping-pressure/

Landaud, S., Latrille, E., Corrieu, G. (2001). Top Pressure and Temperature Control the Fusel Alcohol/Ester Ratio through Yeast Growth in Beer Fermentation. Journal of the Institute of Brewing, 107(2), 107-117.
doi:10.1002/j.2050-0416.2001.tb00083.x

A recent Brulosophy experiment, found no significant difference in taste between 2 samples of the same beer one fermented under pressure (5psi gauge) from the start and the other at atmospheric pressure only.

 

[chrisb8]

I ferment my lagers at 12C then after about 10 days raise the temperature gradually over a few days to 22C to finish fermentation and perform diacetyl rest. Then cold crash and gelatine fining. Total of 3 weeks in the fermentation vessel. 3 weeks carbonating and conditioning in the bottle and its done

 

[Isolec82]

Here is a link to an interesting article by Scott Janish and details of the paper I mentioned in my earlier post.

http://scottjanish.com/fermenting-dry-hopping-pressure/

Looks interesting. I have printed it off and will read quietly later. I notice when dipping into his paper, he brews at 20psi. I try to never go above 10psi as i tend to get the maximum return at this pressure.

I ferment my lagers at 12C then after about 10 days raise the temperature gradually

I normally find by the end of the week the ferment is virtually complete and i like to raise the temp whilst the yeast is still reasonably active for my "d rest". Working on the principle you can brew at higher temps under pressure i am sutre this does no harm and certainly speeds the process up.

 

[johncrobinson]

On this forum is a guy who fermented and cleared a wine kit in under a week.Using pressure.(A Fermentasaurus)
He reported a much inproved quality as well.

 

[SmallSpacesBrewing]

On this forum is a guy who fermented and cleared a wine kit in under a week.Using pressure.(A Fermentasaurus)
He reported a much inproved quality as well.

That would be me. I've been fermenting everything under pressure the last year. Mostly beer with Kveik yeast, also at high pressure(28 psi). My beers have never been better. This is the wine thread.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/anybody-tried-fermenting-wine-under-pressure.83683/

I've read the bruexperiment but I disagree to his findings. I've never fermented under 10psi though.

 

[johncrobinson]

Yes thats you.

 

[venkman100]

I remember drinking bottled Stella 35 ish years ago, it seemed a very different brew to nowadays. It had flavour..... It seems to have got worse as the years went by. Can't remember the last time I had it..... Thank goodness. So much for the above process...

 

[Birkin]

I watched a documentary on lager a while ago, this was a key topic of discussion.

It varies across the big Lager brewers, but generally speaking the turnaround time for Heineken, Budweiser, Stella and Carlsberg is no more than 3 weeks. The reason I say no more than, is because most of them cut their lagering time as demand increases to meet spikes in demand.

I actually like alot of the commercial lagers though, I'm not so fussed on the 4% brews, they always taste a bit watery to me.

In comparison, it's hard to get a home brewed lager to taste as clean - if I lager a beer fermented at room temp I can really tell the difference though when comparing it to a lager fermented at 12C with bottom fermenting yeast.

In my limited but growing experience of homebrew lager, it does seem that the yeast and fermentation Temps have the biggest influence.

I think lagering probably has an influence, but at the moment my thinking is that it's probably harder to spot.

 

[chrisb8]

On the shepherd neame tour I'm sure that they said they ferment their lager for 1 week then remove the yeast and store in the fermentation tank for a further 4 to 6 weeks before packaging.

 

[BeerCat]

I remember drinking bottled Stella 35 ish years ago, it seemed a very different brew to nowadays. It had flavour..... It seems to have got worse as the years went by. Can't remember the last time I had it..... Thank goodness. So much for the above process...

The **** they brew here is radically different. No hop aroma or flavour for a start. Not even the same beer imho.