Persistent Off flavour/aroma driving me insane!

Hi All,

I'm a new member on here, and a new all grain brewer. I've done 3 batches so far, and each one has been plagued by a strange off flavour/aroma. It's hard to describe, I've read through a lot of the BJCP definitions of off flavours, and can't find anything that sounds like my experience. The smell is really distinctive, and masks any of the aroma of the actual beer. It's a kind of dirty, wet dog type of smell. The flavour has completely overtaken any of the beers intended characteristics. It's kind of like the smell, with a slightly rusty/bloody edge. It's tart and slightly acidic, but probably not as far as vinegary or sour. I have been really cautious about cleaning and sterilising (as far as I know as a beginner), and am using supermarket bottled water. I hit my OG, and FG in all three brews. I've put some details below in case it might help someone diagnose the issue!

Setup - Brewzilla 3.1.1 - Fermzilla (under 5 psi. approx) - Corny Keg (force carb.)
Water - Tesco Ashbeck
Cleaning - Stellarclean PBW, Chemsan (no rinse foaming san.) diluted to guidelines

BREW 1 - Citra smash - US05
Brewday went ok for my first time, although I forgot to take a gravity reading and so dipped a sanitised tube into the fermenter before pitching yeast. Fermentation started approx 24hrs after pitching, and fermented out in around 5-7 days. It didn't taste great in the fermenter, although this might just have been green beer. I transferred after 14 days to a re-conditioned corny keg, which I had cleaned and sanitised. This was not a closed transfer as I did not have a second black ball lock post, and I did cause some bubbling as the dip tube got caught on the side of the fermenter picking up co2 towards the end of transfer. I carbed at approx. 10 psi at 2 degrees for 10 days, but the beer never felt fully carbed and never fully cleared, I didn't ever have any head when dispensed with a picnic tap. The carbed beer wasn't nice, but was drinkable for around a week, but the off flavour developed in keg and I ended up ditching about 50% of it at this point.

Being my first brew, I assumed that I had done something wrong on Brewday/transfer, leading to the beer spoiling.

BREW 2 - Elusive Brew Level Up Red Ale - US05
Brewday went perfectly, the only issue was a slightly stuck mash which I managed to sort quite quickly. Fermentation started a few hours after pitching and the brew hit FG in around 5 days. I dry hopped with 100g of citra on day 5, and the beer tasted absolutely incredible 2 days into the dry hop (day 7), with really rich malt flavours and a bright citra aroma. I tasted again 2/3 days later (day 9 or 10), and the malt flavour had all but disappeared, the beer tasted muted, metallic and slightly astringent. I put this down to over hopping, and so transferred the beer that night to my re-conditioned (cleaned/sanitised/purged) keg. This time I closed transferred, which took about 40 mins, and I felt this went well. I tasted after 5 days carbing in keg, and got the same off aroma as the first beer immediately. Again the beer didn't seem very well carbed and poured slightly cloudy with no head. The flavour tasted slightly better than it did prior to kegging, and so I kept chilling and carbing hoping that this would condition and improve, but after two weeks the beer had deteriorated and so I chucked it down the drain. The was no remaining malt or hop flavour, the beer tasted bloody and metallic, as this warmed i picked up some ethanol/chemical flavours.

This tasted so good on day 7 in the fermenter, and both beers hadn't carbed properly, so I assumed that the issue might be with my reconditioned corny. As such I decided to buy a brand new keg from Maltmiller to eliminate this.

BREW 3 - Elusive Brew Level Up Red Ale - US05
I had a bit of a nightmare getting the mash water to flow through the bed, it took me an age to dough in, and all through the mash the water level was a few cm higher than previous brews (but not as high as the overflow). I also boiled for 10-15 minutes too long, and it felt as though the false bottom was lifting when I whirlpooled. Shortly after this the pump on my Brewzilla blocked up due to all of the trub getting to the bottom, and so this brew took me significantly longer to cool, and I had to fill the fermenter using the ball valve tap, rather than pump out of the re-circ arm. Fermentation started a few hours later, and the beer tasted ok just off of FG on day 4 prior to dry hopping. I used 50g of Citra this time rather than 100g, and tapped a sample 2 days into the dry hop. Straight away I noticed the same off aroma from the 2 previous brews, and this was slightly evident in the flavour as well. I wanted to give the beer a good shot though, and so I did a closed loop transfer to my brand new (cleaned/sanitised/purged) keg on day 9, and after 6 days chilling and carbing it's already undrinkable. Nothing of the original character of the beer remains, it smells and tastes really rough. Despite using a brand new keg nothing has improved, I still don't get much head when serving at 10 psi, 2.5 degrees c, and the beer is still slightly cloudy.

I've been drinking and reading about beer for the last 8-10 years and have always wanted to homebrew. I really don't mind making mistakes, I want this to be a long term hobby and have no problem with a learning curve. The upsetting thing for me is that I still am no closer to knowing what I'm doing wrong! I've spent over 20 hours in the workshop brewing and cleaning as well as countless hours on here and Youtube researching, in addition to well over a grand and I haven't yet produced a passable beer. My wife's family are beerdos too, a couple of them homebrew with extract. They keep asking how my beers going and it's getting very depressing having to repeatedly tell them that it's cr@p!

I initially thought that the problem was the re-conditioned keg, but have since picked up the same smell in the Fermzilla and so maybe that's the cause of the issue? I'm reasonably confident that it's not oxidation, and I have cleaned and sanitised a lot more stringently than some others seem to get away with. I also use bottled water (Ashbeck).

Apologies for the longest post ever. I'd really appreciate some help in moving forward to try and cut out this off flavour/aroma, it's genuinely starting to get me down.

Just curious, how are you chilling the wort?

This is intriguing (although a ballache for you). If you're confident you've thoroughly cleaned everything- a you sound as if you know what you're doing- then could you describe your cleaning process and tell us how you get rid of the traces of cleaner afterwards.
I don't think it's oxidation either.
Could you tell us about how you treat your yeast before pitching, what yeast you're using and the pitching temperature and yeast quantity and batch volume. Yeast stress can cause all sorts of nasty smells to taint the beer.
Could you do a small, test brew, say 10 litres, and let it ferment in an ordinary fermenter with a lid and then bottle it without going through any other processes. Let us know if the off-flavour develops during fermentation.

Silly question given you seem quite knowledgeable, but are you definitely rinsing the PBW off properly?

Some of your symptoms sound like some of the oxidation symptoms I’ve had (diminishing hop flavour, astringent aftertaste), but if you are kegging and force carbing it’s unlikely especially if you’ve been doing closed transfers for the later brews.

I was getting a funny twangy aftertaste in my last 2 brews recently (a Munich Helles and a Hefeweizen), but I think it might have been either the temperature of the beer or slight over carbing causing carbonation bite because when I raised the temperature and reduced my serving pressure it subsided.

I would start my eliminating one thing at a time on the cold side. I would start with buying a cheap fermentor from the range as @An Ankoù suggested. Brew a simple brew to reduce cost. Keg as normal, repeat the same process and bottle this brew.

Hi Guys, Cheers for your help.

For chilling I'm using the immersion chiller which came with my Brewzilla, attached to garden tap. I've been cleaning this with PBW alongside my Brewzilla after brewing, then on the next brewday I give this a quick wash and soak in a bucket of diluted chemsan prior to/between uses (where I also keep my mash paddle, and whirlpool paddle).

My cleaning process for the Brewzilla is to give it a good go over with a hose to get rid of trub, and then I fill with PBW solution, run the pump for a bit, and soak overnight (I have used cold water for this). The next day I pump the water out, and then add a couple of buckets of tap water, sponging off any pbw residue on the sides before pumping out (x2 or 3 times). The day before brewday I have added tap water and pumped out to make sure pump is clear before heating my liquor overnight.

Fermzilla - I remove the bottom container and flush all of the trub out with a hose. When everything looks clean I disassemble the butterfly valve and plonk all of the smaller bits in a bucket of cold weak PBW solution. I then sponge off the clear plastic body, dipping the sponge into this bucket. I will admit that for the first two brews one side of the sponge had a green scouring pad, i didn't ever use this side but it was there, so could possibly have caused scratches. I then clean off all of the smaller pieces and hose everything off with tap water before reassembling. Whilst the mash is running I then partially fill the fermenter with Chemsan, diluting to instructions and immersing/spraying the lid parts, before fitting the lid and giving a good shake/upside down etc. under pressure. I then pop the lid and pour out the sanitiser before filling.

Keg - The day before kegging I fill with PBW and soak + upside down (I heated this for the third brew), sponge down the sides, small parts in a bowl of PBW. I then rinse everything off and fill keg to rim with Chemsan, and push out with Co2 until empty.

I've used Safale US05 for all three brews, and it's always started quickly and fermented to FG. I have done 19L batches and always just used a single full packet of dry yeast, I transfer from height from my Brewzilla into the top of the fermenter, pitch halfway through, and then transfer the rest of the wort on top, moving the plastic tube around to aim at visible floating yeast and aerate. I'm not absolutely sure of the pitching temp, I've aimed for 19/20c but don't entirely trust the temp shown on Brewzilla, and with a plastic fermenter have probably ended up on the cold side of that temp.

I use an Inkbird/fridge/tube heater setup to control my fermentation temp, set to 19 degrees c. so it probably comes up to temp quite quickly.

Hi,I would agree with @An Ankoù as regarding test batch in another fermenter and the yeast.
I've had similar issues myself using S04 with no temp control and MJ36 regarding the solvent smell and taste.
The wet dog is a musty aroma and have had that in bottles that had not been capped properly due too my capper.
Out of curiosity though how did you clean your equipment first time out as the brewzilla especially will have traces of oil and grime and whoever's hands upon it when it came.I know with mine I cleaned it with warm soapy water recirculating through the pump,flushed and filled to 30 litres and boiled again recirculating up to 80° so as to get rid of any residues that could be harbouring.Regarding your Fermzilla I would strip it to bits as its seems that you may have a mild infection and believe me when I say strip every bit that comes apart and thoroughly clean with a weak bleach solution especially the in/out posts and threads,orings etc.
List your yeast,temps and whatever other control measures you have

I thought that I might retreat into extract territory maybe for the next one to keep things simple and less time consuming until I can get clean tasting beer, and will pick up a bucket and siphon so that I can keg and bottle to compare.

chrisbrooker said:

I thought that I might retreat into extract territory maybe for the next one to keep things simple and less time consuming until I can get clean tasting beer, and will pick up a bucket and siphon so that I can keg and bottle to compare.

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Your cleaning sounds ok but excessive as I wouldn't recommend the overnight soaking as cleaning at the time then finish with a good rinse off and air dry.
Your chiller is a big concern to me as you will certainly have a reaction with the chemsan that it is soaked in which there is no call for,just make sure it's clean and pop it in 10 mins before the end of the boil and this will sanitise it.

Forgot to mention that chemsan is an acidic based cleaner which causes a chemical reaction with stainless steel and copper which we normally use in brewing....

chrisbrooker said:

I thought that I might retreat into extract territory maybe for the next one to keep things simple and less time consuming until I can get clean tasting beer, and will pick up a bucket and siphon so that I can keg and bottle to compare.

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Na stick with it and you'll get through it and once you've sorted it well you'll know what your issue was and how to resolve it.

I had a similar issue for a while.
Though I have nothing fresh to offer, that hasn’t already been suggested, I will wish you luck, and hope that you manage to expel whatever dark forces are ruining your ale.

Gerryjo said:

Your cleaning sounds ok but excessive as I wouldn't recommend the overnight soaking as cleaning at the time then finish with a good rinse off and air dry.
Your chiller is a big concern to me as you will certainly have a reaction with the chemsan that it is soaked in which there is no call for,just make sure it's clean and pop it in 10 mins before the end of the boil and this will sanitise it.

Forgot to mention that chemsan is an acidic based cleaner which causes a chemical reaction with stainless steel and copper which we normally use in brewing....

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That was my thought RE the chiller as everything else seems ok (based on my limited experience with AG).

chrisbrooker said:

I've used Safale US05 for all three brews, and it's always started quickly and fermented to FG. I have done 19L batches and always just used a single full packet of dry yeast, I transfer from height from my Brewzilla into the top of the fermenter, pitch halfway through, and then transfer the rest of the wort on top, moving the plastic tube around to aim at visible floating yeast and aerate. I'm not absolutely sure of the pitching temp, I've aimed for 19/20c but don't entirely trust the temp shown on Brewzilla, and with a plastic fermenter have probably ended up on the cold side of that temp.

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This may or may not be the cause of your woes, but it's not the way to pitch a dried yeast.
Pour all of the beer into the fermenter and oxygenate it if you were going to oxygenate it. If you need to top up to the final volume with boiled and cooled water, do that as well. Then, sprinkle the yeast over the surface of the beer and leave it. The yeast will rehydrate and sink into the beer of its own accord. Your method is inviting yeast stress. While that may not be the problem, let's eliminate it.

An Ankoù said:

This may or may not be the cause of your woes, but it's not the way to pitch a dried yeast.
Pour all of the beer into the fermenter and oxygenate it if you were going to oxygenate it. If you need to top up to the final volume with boiled and cooled water, do that as well. Then, sprinkle the yeast over the surface of the beer and leave it. The yeast will rehydrate and sink into the beer of its own accord. Your method is inviting yeast stress. While that may not be the problem, let's eliminate it.

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I can see @Drunkula twitching as he reads your statement

samale said:

I can see @Drunkula twitching as he reads your statement

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Why? I resisted the temptation to suggest the OP rehydrates the yeast in water before pitching. I know not everybody thinks that's necessary, and, indeed, the sachets are clearly marked, "sprinkle the contents over the surface of the beer" or words to that effect.

An Ankoù said:

Why? I resisted the temptation to suggest the OP rehydrates the yeast in water before pitching. I know not everybody thinks that's necessary, and, indeed, the sachets are clearly marked, "sprinkle the contents over the surface of the beer" or words to that effect.

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That's exactly what I do, he swears by rehydration.

Normally fill the fermentor from a height, sprinkle and close the lid. Works for me

samale said:

That's exactly what I do, he swears by rehydration.

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I always rehydrate in water, too. Something I picked up in the "Yeast" book about sprinkling onto the beer killing off half the cells. But if the manufacturers say a sachet's enough for a 5 gallon batch then they've probably accounted for that. Except for Youngs. They provide 5g sachets for a five gallon batch. i reckon that's too little to be on the safe side.

samale said:

Normally fill the fermentor from a height, sprinkle and close the lid. Works for me

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Indeed, but the OP is half filling, then pitching and then pouring the other half on top of the yeast. I think the yeast could be becoming physically damaged while in a half-way state of being neither dry nor fully rehydrated.

An Ankoù said:

Why? I resisted the temptation to suggest the OP rehydrates the yeast in water before pitching. I know not everybody thinks that's necessary, and, indeed, the sachets are clearly marked, "sprinkle the contents over the surface of the beer" or words to that effect.

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I totally agree just sprinkle if that is what the manufacturers say I very very rarely rehydrate dried yeast. I think some people try to make a science/overcomplicate out of things when not required-works for me

How long do you soak your stainless steel / metal parts for. Either in PBW or Chemsan?

Do you store the kegs with Chemsan in?