The Quest for the Perfect Bitter

PhilBrew · Mar 12, 2021

Hi Nicks

Nicks90 said:
blacksheep, which the brewery says has 26 ibu. Even their Rigg welter (which is fabulous beer BTW) is only 32 ibu

... those numbers don't look right, just compared with the taste :?:

... care to reference where the brewery have said that?

Nicks90 said:
I'm also a fan of York brewery, their Guzzler session beer is down at 22, and only rising above 30 for the pale ales.

... interesting way of presenting those figures :?:

... York don't describe Guzzler as a Bitter, they call it a "GOLDEN SESSION ALE", whereas they describe Terrier as a "TRADITIONAL BEST BITTER", that's Terrier, at 38 IBU and 4.2% ... are you suggesting that's not a Bitter? Not a Yorkshire Bitter? :?:

Just wondering?

Cheers, PhilB

Galena · Mar 12, 2021

According to Roger Protz Black Sheep Special Bitter has an IBU of 26, but then the special Bitter is not Black Sheep Ale afaik
Protz has their Best Bitter with an IBU of 31, but then that is not Black Sheep Ale afaik

Graham Wheeler lists Black Sheep Ale with an EBU of 36

Clint · Mar 12, 2021

Bitterness...I think it's a drinkers conditioning...you get sort of immune/weaned into it and like hops you can become "blind" to it and need to refresh your senses.
Dryness...this again I think could maybe confused with water profile...I'm no expert by any means but in my forays into water treatment you can change a beer. As can mash temps..I like when you get that bitter/thirst quenching combination..

Sadfield · Mar 12, 2021

Nicks90 said:
Personally I dislike a high ibu bitter.

Or putting it another way, you don't like Bitter.

I don't put lactose in my Milk Stout as I find it too sweet.

Rodcx500z · Mar 12, 2021

It's like when you get them days when you don't really plan to drink, then you have one and thats it a full day session happens, i love a good bitter but the ibu bit is down to personal choice for me it's anywere from 30 to 40, i used to go in a pub just for the boddingtons the Gerrard arms in Aspull best boddys i ever had :tinhat: another pub sold greenhalls always a cracking pint it's all down to the landlord

Clint · Mar 12, 2021

Rodcx500z said:
It's like when you get them days when you don't really plan to drink, then you have one and thats it a full day session happens, i love a good bitter but the ibu bit is down to personal choice for me it's anywere from 30 to 40, i used to go in a pub just for the boddingtons the Gerrard arms in Aspull best boddys i ever had :tinhat: another pub sold greenhalls always a cracking pint it's all down to the landlord

I partly agree...a magician couldn't make Boddingtons taste anything like it used to...ah, I see you "used to" go there...

Nicks90 · Mar 13, 2021

Sadfield said:
Or putting it another way, you don't like Bitter.

I don't put lactose in my Milk Stout as I find it too sweet.

Well that's rather derogatory sad field.
If we all liked the same thing, it would be a boring world

For those that are interested, after all this is a brewing forum, may I direct you to the brewers association 2020 beer style guidelines.
Ordinary bitter, 20-35 ibu
Best bitter, 25-40 ibu
All of the Scottish ales are below 30 ibu
Blahblahblah.
I am NOT saying anyone who likes 40+ ibu beers are freaks, but conversely being rediculed for saying I personally like low ibu bitter is out of order. Especially when many breweries bitters are in the 20-30 range and backed up by the style guidelines.
So wind your necks in.

Sadfield · Mar 13, 2021

Sure, we all like different things, that's why we brew. Tailoring beers to our own tastes. Drink what you want.

However, given that you have previously claimed beers above 0.6 bitterness units aren't traditional. Which is the majority of Bitter produced. It was you that instigated the idea that people's preferences were wrong and not authentic. It looks like you are trying to validate your own preference for no bitterness in a style of beer called Bitter. Perhaps you don't like Bitter, is a fair comment. So wind your own neck in.

Nicks90 said:
Could not agree more.
An English traditional bitter - or even paler summer ale - should have a bitterness ratio no higher than 0.6
So max 30 ibu for a 1.050 brew.

Any higher and it just loses its traditional roots

Northern_Brewer · Mar 13, 2021

Galena said:
According to Roger Protz Black Sheep Special Bitter has an IBU of 26, but then the special Bitter is not Black Sheep Ale afaik
Protz has their Best Bitter with an IBU of 31, but then that is not Black Sheep Ale afaik

It gets confusing, but Black Sheep Ale is the bottled version of Special (4.4%) - I remember the days when Special really was special, you only got a few casks distributed to favoured pubs near Masham. Gorgeous stuff then, but not quite the same since it became a core beer.

Black Sheep Best Bitter (3.8%) with the green bits on the label/clip is the "ordinary" bitter you usually see in pubs. Untappd has it at 30 IBU which seems plausible - in the absence of official word from the brewery Untappd is generally pretty reliable for that kind of thing although it niggles that you never know the actual source - and is probably consistent with it being Protz' 31 IBU in the past. That would put it at around 0.8 BU:GU.

Clint said:
a magician couldn't make Boddingtons taste anything like it used to...

If you don't follow Ron Pattinson, in recent weeks he has been charting the decline of Boddies in the 70s-80s in great detail.

Northern_Brewer · Mar 13, 2021

Nicks90 said:
may I direct you to the brewers association 2020 beer style guidelines.
Ordinary bitter, 20-35 ibu
Best bitter, 25-40 ibu

...being rediculed for saying I personally like low ibu bitter is out of order. Especially when many breweries bitters are in the 20-30 range and backed up by the style guidelines.
So wind your necks in.

You weren't being ridiculed for saying that's your personal preference, if that's what you had said then people wouldn't have had a problem. But you were being far more dogmatic about it, saying "An English traditional bitter - or even paler summer ale - should have a bitterness ratio no higher than 0.6 So max 30 ibu for a 1.050 brew. Any higher and it just loses its traditional roots".

That's not expressing a preference, that's saying that the likes of Landlord and Terrier (both 38 IBU ) are not English bitters. Which is a) patent nonsense and b) going to upset all those whom those beers are pretty much their ideal of what a bitter should be.

It also ignores the very style guidelines you quote which say they go up to 40 IBU.

And then you appeal to tradition, when if anything bitters were more bitter in the past.

If you had said from the start that this was just your personal preference, it would have been fine. If you had responded "fair play" when you were called out on it then that would have been fine too. But continuing with an attitude of "wind your necks in" is just looking for an argument.

Galena · Mar 13, 2021

Northern_Brewer said:
It gets confusing

Thanks for clarifying, it's a while since I had any Black Sheep but I seem to remember it being quite dark, whereas Graham Wheeler has the Best Bitter as 18 units of colour and Black Sheep Ale as 27 EBC, but I am sure it had the Green label on the pump but I could be wrong, at least I know what to look out for when I can get back in the pub.

peebee · Mar 13, 2021

Northern_Brewer said:
It gets confusing, but Black Sheep Ale is the bottled version of Special (4.4%) - I remember the days when Special really was special ...

I remember the days when there was no "Black Sheep"! Not that long ago (depending on what you use for reference). It was the result of sell-out and break-up at Theakston's (hence "Black Sheep"). I believe it's all happily back together again now?

I also remember sitting outside the brewery waiting for a lift on a warm sunny day. Theakston's brewery across the road. It was as far as I could pilot my hang-glider that day.

Northern_Brewer · Mar 13, 2021

Galena said:
Thanks for clarifying, it's a while since I had any Black Sheep but I seem to remember it being quite dark, whereas Graham Wheeler has the Best Bitter as 18 units of colour and Black Sheep Ale as 27 EBC, but I am sure it had the Green label on the pump but I could be wrong, at least I know what to look out for when I can get back in the pub.

You're not the only one to get confused, and it's possible that the confusion extends to bar staff who might have put the wrong clip on a pump or something?

Rodcx500z · Mar 13, 2021

Black sheep and riggwelter are 2 of my favourites, i don't really care about ibu's it's the beer that matters

Northern_Brewer · Mar 13, 2021

peebee said:
I remember the days when there was no "Black Sheep"! Not that long ago (depending on what you use for reference). It was the result of sell-out and break-up at Theakston's (hence "Black Sheep"). I believe it's all happily back together again now?

Folk tend to forget that the Theakstons sold out to Matthew Brown - not just a sellout, but to Lancastrians! - in 1984, well before S&N bought MB in 1987 which was what prompted Paul Theakston's departure to create what became Black Sheep. The family bought back a controlling stake in Theakstons in 2004, but keep rather quiet that S&N (since bought by Heineken) retained a ~30% stake.

Black Sheep is still independent - members of the Theakston family own <10% directly (although there's probably more hidden behind nominee companies), shareholders range from Fawcetts to the CAMRA members investment club.

ukphiltr7 · Mar 13, 2021

For me at the moment my perfect Bitter is the one that I am currently drinking Tom Claxton Best Bitter. I made it with lme and specialist year. It is the best point that I have made.

Galena · Mar 13, 2021

ukphiltr7 said:
For me at the moment my perfect Bitter is the one that I am currently drinking Tom Claxton Best Bitter. I made it with lme and specialist year. It is the best point that I have made.

Oh come on, don't be so modest, you have 160 posts, I'm sure you must have made a few good points in that time? :laugh8:

531Man · Mar 13, 2021

An Ankoù said:
And IPL is a tautology.

In contrast to peebee,
I knew what tautology was;
Whereas I had to look up the abbreviation IPL!
Never come across it before (obs.).

An Ankoù · Mar 13, 2021

Galena said:
I'm with you on this quest, I was brought up on Bitter and go along with your observations. In the seventies living in Derby it was either Draught Bass or Pedigree, both sadly lacking these days but in the dark days of the growth Keg beers it was the only choice we had for most of the time.
I have less than a years brewing experience, though did throw myself in at the deep end and went straight for AG and water chemistry, after searching for a decent bitter I decided to have a go at developing a recipe based on 5 Points Bitter as seen in THIS VIDEO only I would have to bottle it.
Anyway I went with the following recipe:

Targets
Batch size 21 Litres
ABV: 4.3%, OG 1.045, FG 1.012, EBC 17.3, IBU 39

Fermentables
3.6Kgs MO - 87.5%
170g Amber - 4.2%
170g Crystal 220 EBC - 4.2%
170g Wheat Malt - 4.2%

Hops
50g Fuggles @ 60
25g Fuggles@ 15
25g Fuggles @ 20 min hopstand at 80C

60 min mash at 68C

Yeast
WLP013 London Ale

Water Profile Target pH: 5.22
ca: 141 Mg:27 Na:23 Cl: 101 SO4:291 HCO3 53

BIAB with batch sparge

Fermentation
4 days @ 19C, 1 day @ 20C , 9 days @ 21C

I have brewed this 3 times now and always enjoy it, carbonated at 1.8 and it is better having been stood for a few minutes before drinking. Of course there is always room for improvement and I will be following this thread closely, I would really like to try it as a cask version as in the video and I must try the original one day if I am ever down that way.

Right. Enough of this jibber-jabber. There's "going on a quest" and there's "talking about questing". My first recipe is in the fermenter exactly as above except I used Young's Ale yeast. I made a 12 litre sample batch, which, since my sparge consiisted of just sluicing warm water through the bag of grains, gave me 11.5 litres at 1043. Easily adjusted next time and I'm looking forward to trying this one. Thanks Galena.

I'm waiting for my CML delivery before having ago at @Dads_Ale prize winning bitter.
Any more amazing recipes will be gratefully received and duly made up unless they're full of crystal malt (yuck). In fact I'm going to do two versions of Dad's Prize Bitter, the second substituting one measure of Double Roasted for both measures of crystal.

The game's afoot.

An Ankoù · Mar 13, 2021

531Man said:
In contrast to peebee,
I knew what tautology was;
Whereas I had to look up the abbreviation IPL!
Never come across it before (obs.).

It's a really daft name, I agree. I think I'll start a style called "Imperial Tripe and Liver Shandy"!

The Quest for the Perfect Bitter

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