The Right Time to Dry Hop

the baron said:

I totally agree Clib what I have always said in whatever process you do is take in all the information that is thrown at you and then work a process out between it all that works for you.
I have found one that works for me which is when I do dry hop I do it at approx day 4 then remove after approx 4 days but as I have said this has evolved to smaller dry hops or none in some case and push it all into a whirlpool I do not even use bittering hops unless I am doing a traditional ale or bitter when I do the standard hop boils for that style.
So the moral is find out what works for you and by all means use the science but do not become a slave to it as it gets over thought and that applies to other processes in brewing too

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I still vary things just to keep myself on my old toes. Like a geriatric ballet dancer! I have recently done a couple of brews with only flameout hops, using the no chill technique. Just to see what happens really. No hops during the boil and no dry hops. My software predicts IBUs from no chilling, but I doubt the accuracy! IBUs are very difficult to pin down at the best of times. The first has just been bottled and the sample tasted good, and was pretty bitter - lots of IBUs from a sizeable flame out addition. The second is in the FV. I have done very short boils with these two brews, 15/20 minutes. I'm watching my smart meter gas consumption in real time and getting scared!

So I'm looking at minimising gas consumption in my brewing process, as well as in heating my home etc. So I take hot water from my boiler at 55C and mash in straight away, and leave it on a low light to slowly rise to 78C or thereabouts (not a fixed mash temperature, it gradually rises from around 55 to about 78). Then remove my grain bag, sparge with hot water and raise it to boiling point, which I reach around 45 mins to one hour after filling my kettle and mashing in. Boil for 15 minutes and then switch off, add all my hops, and leave to cool slowly with the lid on to keep aroma losses to a minimum. It stays above 80C for at least an hour and probably much longer, so the isomerisation period is at least an hour. I use a 20L stock pot. Eventually I cool it in the sink just with cold water, transfer to FV and wait for it to get to pitching temp if necessary.

Next time I may not boil at all, just raise the wort temp to 100C, add the hops and switch off. Adding a dry hop to this process is probably a good idea, for some beers. On the occasions that I dry hop I usually add them a day or two before I bottle the beer. I have experienced biotransformation using T-58 and Bry-97 yeasts. Even without a dry hop - just from the hops that were adding post boil.

I did a raw ale once, where I raised the temp to 80C after the mash and then transferred to the FV. It worked fine, but personally I like the insurance of 100C, and I like the beer better, I think. A few home brewers are making a lot of raw ales now I believe, really liking the results.

I have got my whirlpool temp down to 75c and let it freefall for probably 30 mins then take them out, this enables me to put in sh1t loads of hops and keep the IBU's down. I use my whirlpool IBU calculator on Brewers Friend @ the 80c mark and use that as a guide but as you say its not always that accurate and just a guide. I think it was Hazlewood that has a small chart that gives guidelines too from memory which is good to use as well.
I do a lot of no chill too but I do not leave the hops in as some do as I can not have much control over the IBU's with that part of the method.
Whirlpooling does cut down the dry hop amount and I have done quite a few without as I adapt my method to brew style all the time but stay within the realms of my method

I made a fancy hopshooter dry hopper thingy, i used it twice, then just throw them in when the recipe said. And where I am now, chuck them in at the yeast pitch. And I'm still searching for that grassy flavour, but I can't find it. It's working for me, and there's no risk of oxidation.
It's part of the truth, I don't do neipas with crazy dry hop additions.

davidgrace said:

Thanks for all the advice. However, the more I look into dry hopping the more confusing it all becomes as I receive Irreconcilable advice on dry hopping

1. Wait until fermentation is complete so that fermentation doesn’t interfere with flavour from the hops.

2. Don’t remove the lid after fermentation is complete to avoid oxidation of the wort. Best to add the hops when fermentation is almost complete. How can I do that without conflicting with (1) above? I.e. if fermentation has to be complete before adding the hops?

3. Don’t leave the hops in more than 3 days to avoid grassy flavours. How can I be sure to avoid that if I follow (2) above? If I dry hop just before fermentation is complete the hops may be in for more than 3 days

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Personally, I with putting the hops in when fermentation is almost complete. As you say it conflicts with 1 and 3, but I don't think you lose any hop flavour over the last few days of fermentation, nor do you get grassy flavours.

davidgrace said:

Some advice I receive says only dry hop when fermentation is complete to get the best results. However, my current recipe says dry hop at 5 days. I find that usually fermentation has slowed down at 5 days, but is still not complete. What is the right time to dry hop?

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There is no "right time", just personal preference. When Cloudwater DH'd their DIPA v4/5 during and after fermentation respectively, they found that a quarter of people preferred during, a quarter preferred after, and half preferred a blend of the two :
https://cloudwaterbrew.co/blog/2016/8/10/modern-beer-for-modern-times
Historically there's been various ideas on dry-hopping and they've evolved rapidly in recent years. The kind of thing your recipe suggests, hopping just before the end of fermentation was a popular option a couple of years ago, but now the general preference is to hop after the end of fermentation and after cooling to cellar temperature. If you want to get an idea of the science, see this paper from Scott Janish, although much of it is aimed at commercial brewers and things work a bit differently at homebrew scale :
https://scottjanish.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/TQ-58-1-0402-01.pdf
• The main hop-derived compounds extracted during dry hopping are a combination of hydrocarbons, monoterpene alcohols, polyfunctional thiols, and hop-derived esters.
• Synergy among the classes of hop compounds listed above can enhance the sensory impact without actually increasing the concentration of the compounds themselves (e.g., 4MMP can improve the perception of linalool and geraniol). Diversity in classes of hop compounds can help to increase the complexity of heavily hopped beers.
• The extraction of hop compounds during dry hopping can happen relatively quickly, generally 1–3 days. This is true even at temperatures cooler than fermentation temperatures.
• Agitation of dry hops (i.e., burping or recirculating) can reduce extraction time and improve overall extraction efficiency.
• Minimizing oxygen introduction during dry hopping can go a long way toward maintaining the bright and vibrant hop-derived flavors desired from heavily hopped beers.
• Dry hopping can lead to refermentation, resulting in over-carbonation and off-flavors from “hop creep.” Dry hopping at cool temperatures and for short durations can minimize the enzymatic activity responsible for hop creep.
• Dry hopping can increase the final pH of the beer, which can increase the bitterness perception. Experimenting with post-fermentation acid additions to lower the final pH could potentially increase the drinkability of heavily hopped beers. Dry hopping with products with a large portion of the vegetal material removed (like Lupomax™ or Cryo Hops®) could limit the rise in pH from dry hopping.
• Dry hopping can harm foam retention. As with hop creep, shorter dry hop durations and temperatures helped to maintain beer foam.
• Dry hopping at longer durations and warmer temperatures can increase the concentrations of astringent and green-tasting compounds like polyphenols and myrcene.

Recommended Best Practices for Dry Hopping
• Match heavy dry hopping rates with whirlpool hopping at a rate of 1.5–2.5 pounds per barrel at 180°F (82°C) for better bittering balance and increased hop-derived flavor complexity. The reduction in whirlpool temperature helps retain more oil going into the fermenter while also keeping the IBUs down.
• For increased hop-saturated flavor to pair and balance heavy dry hopping rates, consider using hops high in total survivable compounds, (i.e., hop-derived esters, thiols, and oxygen-containing monoterpene alcohols) in the whirlpool, such as Idaho 7™, Mosaic®, Bravo, Citra®, Millennium, Mount Hood, Ekuanot®, and Simcoe®, as well as brewing practices that promote hop oil retention.
• Consider adding additional acid (like phosphoric acid) to the kettle (targeting 4.8–4.9 post-boil pH) when brewing higher alcohol and highly dry hopped DIPAs to counter dry hop pH rise for better drinkability. Post-fermentation acid adjustment to 4.2–4.4 pH can also help.
• Duration of dry hopping for no longer than 3 days, removing spent dry hops from the cone before doing additional dry hop charges.
• Dry hop at cool temperatures, 50–58°F (10–14°C), to improve foam and to reduce excessive hydrocarbon extraction, polyphenols, and hop creep.
• Minimize the oxygen exposure to the beer when dry hoping by purging the dry hops with CO2 before dropping them into the fermentor. Likewise, adding them to a closed, purged tank, such as with a hop doser, will prevent eruptions and beer showers.
• Agitate dry hops at least once a day to increase extraction efficiency and reduce the extraction time. Consider agitating high alpha-acid hop varieties and low-ABV beers multiple times a day to help with extraction due to the nonpolar nature of hop oils.
• Agitate dry hops with 60 s bursts of ~30 PSI from the bottom of the cone while keeping the tank under 8–15 PSI of pressure.
• Consider dry hopping mid-fermentation to soften or reduce strong resin and/or green-tasting hydrocarbons from hop varieties that have that potential (like Sabro™) that could otherwise dominate the palate.

Northern_Brewer said:

Match heavy dry hopping rates with whirlpool hopping at a rate of 1.5–2.5

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interesting. I wil try that. I’ve currently ben doing equal ratios at most. Quite often 2 to 1 in favour of the dry hop.

interesting what you say about sabro, I has a talus pale ale that was very green early on but then settled into a coconut oil flavour.

I am at the moment say using 175g in whirlpool @ 75c and 25g in Dry Hop or a
Even a higher whirlpool and no dry hop with some. It gives me less IBU's so I can Cram it with hops

75 is my usual temp too as you can still use a 10 min boil addition then

I tried a hop stand only at 80c recently and am going to try a 90c hop stand only too soon just for comparison.

davidgrace said:

Thanks for all the advice. However, the more I look into dry hopping the more confusing it all becomes as I receive Irreconcilable advice on dry hopping

1. Wait until fermentation is complete so that fermentation doesn’t interfere with flavour from the hops.

2. Don’t remove the lid after fermentation is complete to avoid oxidation of the wort. Best to add the hops when fermentation is almost complete. How can I do that without conflicting with (1) above? I.e. if fermentation has to be complete before adding the hops?

3. Don’t leave the hops in more than 3 days to avoid grassy flavours. How can I be sure to avoid that if I follow (2) above? If I dry hop just before fermentation is complete the hops may be in for more than 3 days

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Just don't worry.
1. Dry hopping during fermentation and after Fermentation both work well, and some beers have both.
2 Be careful about introducing oxygen but don't be paranoid. Natural carbonation rather than forced carbonation is your friend. It reduces the oxidation threat. But fret not anyway, just be careful. I've helped in breweries and they haven't excluded oxygen. Some breweries ferment openly. A big shallow vat of beer open to the air.
3. Grassy flavours. Pah. Pretty much internet myth in my opinion. Don't believe everything you read online. Try things, and decide for yourself.

Common sense from Clib do not panic as he says the Paranoia group will get you

clib said:

Just don't worry.
1. Dry hopping during fermentation and after Fermentation both work well, and some beers have both.
2 Be careful about introducing oxygen but don't be paranoid. Natural carbonation rather than forced carbonation is your friend. It reduces the oxidation threat. But fret not anyway, just be careful. I've helped in breweries and they haven't excluded oxygen. Some breweries ferment openly. A big shallow vat of beer open to the air.
3. Grassy flavours. Pah. Pretty much internet myth in my opinion. Don't believe everything you read online. Try things, and decide for yourself.

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Thanks, clib. I brewed last Friday and now plan to put the dry hops in this Wednesday bottling probably next Tuesday. And all without worrying.

For some brews, I have started adding hops at flame out and then transferring them with the wort to the fermenter and leaving them in for the whole fermentation (usually about a week). I've not had any recognisable off flavours because of it.
But then I may have an unsophisticated palette!

This might help :) The Guide to Dry Hopping - Techniques for home brewers

Loonytoone said:

For some brews, I have started adding hops at flame out and then transferring them with the wort to the fermenter and leaving them in for the whole fermentation (usually about a week). I've not had any recognisable off flavours because of it.
But then I may have an unsophisticated palette!

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sounds good actually - similar to dip hopping! hop go into the fermenter before racking and stay there

https://byo.com/article/dip-hopping/

Northern_Brewer said:

Match heavy dry hopping rates with whirlpool hopping at a rate of 1.5–2.5 pounds per barrel at 180°F (82°C) for better bittering balance and increased hop-derived flavor complexity.

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Is the larger element the dry hop or hop stand here? Also what’s the conversion from pounds per barrel to grams per litre?

Edit. Google says 3.32851187 grams / litre

And I read that wrong it’s a rate no a ratio! So whirlpool between 100 and 170g in 20 litres for big dry hopped beers.

I would be interested to hear if there is an advised ratio of hop stand to dry hops though?

Also 82c. I believe you get about 25% of standard ibis at 80 so maybe about 30% at 82. Think you would need to miss out on boil hops at this level at temp then.

davidgrace said:

Thanks, clib. I brewed last Friday and now plan to put the dry hops in this Wednesday bottling probably next Tuesday. And all without worrying.

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So how did it end up @davidgrace? Dreaded grassy flavours, or internet myth?

tigertim said:

So how did it end up @davidgrace? Dreaded grassy flavours, or internet myth?

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