Labour's candidate was right

Tony, I agree there is more than an element of truth in that.

The problem with politics today is it's all about self, self, self. Major got slagged off when he was in for all sorts of reasons, but compared to Blown and bLiar he was a saint. I often wonder how much better things could have turned out if John Smith hadn't died.
I'm working class and couldn't contemplate trying to put this shower of shiteheads back in to f*ck more things up. They are the biggest bunch of incompetents I have ever seen in government in my 66 years!
They really couldn't organise a teddy bears picnic yet they are obsessed with change.

garwatts said:

They really couldn't organise a teddy bears picnic yet they are obsessed with change.

Click to expand...

By changing things (Even if they don't need changing) you create the impression of activity (Which is often meaningless and wasteful) . . .
and thereby have things that you can measure (which are pointless and artificial) . . .
that demonstrate the improvements made (resulting in worse service in reality) . . .

Plus you can employ lots of consultants from your mates firms (Where you are a non executive director) and they can make lots of money and give you a job when you find yourself on civvy street.


I'm too young to be this cynical

Aleman said:

I'm too young to be this cynical

Click to expand...

Labour wont win (even with a fair amount of die-hard socialists like myself), because there is one question they can't possibly answer. All electioneering includes 'what we will do if we are elected', when highlighting a particular issue. The unanswerable question is 'why haven't you done it in the 13 years?'

It 'aint over 'till the fat lady sings. Remember Kinnock??

I honestly believe we are currently reaping Thatchers harvest and the current ecconomic situation would have been difficult for any prime minister to handle.

I'm going to leave it there as politics rarely has a place amongst friends

markp said:

politics rarely has a place amongst friends

Click to expand...

Wise words!
:thumb:

Yep if only Thatcher hadn't sold off our gold too cheap. Buggered up everyone's pensions. Lumbered us with billions in debt for the banks. Lumbered us with billions in debt for PFI on schools, hospitals, prisons etc. Took us into Afghanistan and Iraq. Became Bush's poodle. Given back the £4.5 billion annual rebate to the EU in the hope of being made President one day.........
I could go on but it does me no good :evil: :evil:

Aleman said:

on waste

Click to expand...

Check out Mitchell's excellent polemic on political waste, which was first doing the rounds about 6 months ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoz5EuIF_y8

garwatts said:

I often wonder how much better things could have turned out if John Smith hadn't died.

Click to expand...

True dat!

Listening to peoples opinions over the past few weeks both at work and on forums etc...... I sometimes think people don't see the wood from the trees or further than the end of their nose.

I cannot see how the current state of the country can be blamed on anyone other than Gordon Brown and his government, Tony Blair Fecked us all over well and good too, I would hate to think what Iraq and Afganistan has cost us £££££££, a real benefit to the economy that lot,there is no one else to blame other than the labour party that is it the end no one else, not the bankers not the conservatives not the liberal democrats, the Red Red Labour party 13 years and still f*cking it up.

Now I am not telling anyone not to vote for them its your Vote and your own choice! but if they get 5 more years and make things any worse, just think about this there are 10-15 Fund managers who hold over £4,500 Billion Pounds in the UK economy if these people see its not good business to stay in the UK due to government decisions extra tax etc they can move these funds at the drop of a hat, this would = UK totally F*cked.

Not to mention the rich are the ones who provide the cash to fund business, and keep the economy buoyant, If you don't scratch their backs they will invest elsewhere and make other economies more attractive than ours, without an attractive economy there will be no investment in business therefore no jobs, no workers to tax and everyone will suffer as a result.


Saying that vote for whoever you see fit, but make sure you do Vote!

UP

Oh markp is right, we should'nt allow politics to divide us here.

But UP 'red red labour' ha ha ha ha, if only....we would'nt have gone to war had we a proper red party still. Remember though the public services here are a beacon of what can be achieved, Labour have surely missed a trick in not bellowing loudly about their investment in the NHS, schools etc.

i find it hilarious that the same right wingers tell us about 'broken britain' then whine on how they don't want to share the achievements with immigrants who are coming here to 'take our jobs'. No, looney right wingers, not 'take our jobs'....no no no....to DO our jobs.

Hilarious how ordinary working people will vote for Cameron and his public school cronies. now, me, I'm an ex public schoolie, yeah I would gain from Camerons inheritance tax plans, don't think thats right though. The simple truth is that if he is promoting such a stupid policy NOW imagine what he will be serving up to his Eton mates should he ever get power!
And we thought the poll tax was stupid?
Blimey.
Can't believe anyone would allow the Tories back.


I really wish John Smith had lived. Oh and bring back Prentiss, Benn, Heffer et al.
Paul Foot, miss him too.
Well thats nailed my colours to the mast, I'll be voting tactically, LibDem to keep the Tory out. I met the Tory, a nice lass but all style no substance, media type, surprise surprise. At least she bothered to talk having told her I'm a revolutionary Marxist!
pip pip!
micmacmoc
peoples republic of kernow

If there's one thing I hate it's the soma of 'wealth generation' that's dangled in front of the workers as they watch their bosses bonuses fly skyward way above any increase in salary they can expect to see even in percentage terms. It doesn't matter how bankrupt a system is (financially and morally) as long as it's producing tax revenue. Bonkers. It's a myth perpetuated by a British media owned overwhelmingly by billionaire right-wingers who have vested interests in seeing a certain party take power.

Further we, as a nation, MUST NOT be held to ransom by '10-15 Fund managers'. We can't all just vote for who the fund managers want in! Otherwise why not just let the City decide who's PM every 5 years and be done with it? They made such a good job decision making over the past 5 didn't they.

Ah well, for better or for worse I've made my mark today.

Problem is it's not just those 10-15 bankers in the UK that have that power, all it takes to bring Britain to it's knees (and its happened during both the labour term and the last Tory term) is for some individual in Switzerland to start selling Sterling short . . . . . Very very quickly the UK Government falls into whatever EU line they objected to . . . and that is why power has been 'handed' to the faceless EU Bureaucrats if we didn't then the country would face an even worse nightmare.

Black Monday/Wednesday/Friday . . . recessions/ bank crash . . . . look at who made money during / shortly after those times . . . that is where the power in this World lies. . . . . And don't even think about going up against China

And apart from that I don't even have One single Vote

in the words of the bonzo dog doodah band "it doesnt matter who you vote for the goverment always gets in"

were just swapping one bunch of corrupt proto-facists for another.........


ah well at leasts theres still beer........ :drink:

Working in the public sector, I know there loads of cuts to be made.

Even outside of my sphere of work, its pretty obvious where money can be saved (£500million to negotiate the contracts for the disasterous part privatisation of the tube, for example).

The problem is I dont trust any party or any group of public sector seniour management to cut what needs to be cut. They will cut what musnt be cut and leave the useless bloated bits alone.

Bit depressing really.

I voted UKIP. Hard luck, Nige.

micmacmoc said:

But UP 'red red labour' ha ha ha ha, if only....we would'nt have gone to war had we a proper red party still. Remember though the public services here are a beacon of what can be achieved, Labour have surely missed a trick in not bellowing loudly about their investment in the NHS, schools etc.

i find it hilarious that the same right wingers tell us about 'broken britain' then whine on how they don't want to share the achievements with immigrants who are coming here to 'take our jobs'. No, looney right wingers, not 'take our jobs'....no no no....to DO our jobs.

Click to expand...

Problem is mate, we dont have the money to pay for the public services in their current form.

We dont.

Sorry.

The facts speak for themselves. We borrowed upwards of £163,000,000,000 this year just to keep things running. Thats not sustainable. Ask a Greek. And we have been running substantial deficits for the past 7 years at least, and that was boom time! The simple truth is our public debt far exceeds out GDP, possibly as much as threefold, when you take into account all the stuff that Brown shifted off the balance sheet.

And thats quite apart from personal debt, which also exceeds our GDP.

If we carry on like we are, we will soon be spending more on servicing our debts than we do on education. And thats with very benign interest rates. If the cost of borrowing goes up a bit, we could be spending more on debt servicing than healthcare. If the cost goes up moderately, we will end up spending more on debt servicing than anything else. And if the cost goes up dramatically, we will be bankrupt. I dont want that to happen.

Its also fine to say the immigrants are doing the jobs that Brits done want to do, but the reason Brits dont want to do them is that face an effective 95% tax rate the moment they stop watching Jeremy Kyle and start working. I think most right wingers want a system that rewards those who work, rather than penalising them.

jonewer said:

micmacmoc said:

But UP 'red red labour' ha ha ha ha, if only....we would'nt have gone to war had we a proper red party still. Remember though the public services here are a beacon of what can be achieved, Labour have surely missed a trick in not bellowing loudly about their investment in the NHS, schools etc.

i find it hilarious that the same right wingers tell us about 'broken britain' then whine on how they don't want to share the achievements with immigrants who are coming here to 'take our jobs'. No, looney right wingers, not 'take our jobs'....no no no....to DO our jobs.

Click to expand...

Problem is mate, we dont have the money to pay for the public services in their current form.

We dont.

Sorry.

The facts speak for themselves. We borrowed upwards of £163,000,000,000 this year just to keep things running. Thats not sustainable. Ask a Greek. And we have been running substantial deficits for the past 7 years at least, and that was boom time! The simple truth is our public debt far exceeds out GDP, possibly as much as threefold, when you take into account all the stuff that Brown shifted off the balance sheet.

And thats quite apart from personal debt, which also exceeds our GDP.

If we carry on like we are, we will soon be spending more on servicing our debts than we do on education. And thats with very benign interest rates. If the cost of borrowing goes up a bit, we could be spending more on debt servicing than healthcare. If the cost goes up moderately, we will end up spending more on debt servicing than anything else. And if the cost goes up dramatically, we will be bankrupt. I dont want that to happen.

Its also fine to say the immigrants are doing the jobs that Brits done want to do, but the reason Brits dont want to do them is that face an effective 95% tax rate the moment they stop watching Jeremy Kyle and start working. I think most right wingers want a system that rewards those who work, rather than penalising them.

Click to expand...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :thumb:

jonewer said:

micmacmoc said:

But UP 'red red labour' ha ha ha ha, if only....we would'nt have gone to war had we a proper red party still. Remember though the public services here are a beacon of what can be achieved, Labour have surely missed a trick in not bellowing loudly about their investment in the NHS, schools etc.

i find it hilarious that the same right wingers tell us about 'broken britain' then whine on how they don't want to share the achievements with immigrants who are coming here to 'take our jobs'. No, looney right wingers, not 'take our jobs'....no no no....to DO our jobs.

Click to expand...

Problem is mate, we dont have the money to pay for the public services in their current form.

We dont.

Sorry.

The facts speak for themselves. We borrowed upwards of £163,000,000,000 this year just to keep things running. Thats not sustainable. Ask a Greek. And we have been running substantial deficits for the past 7 years at least, and that was boom time! The simple truth is our public debt far exceeds out GDP, possibly as much as threefold, when you take into account all the stuff that Brown shifted off the balance sheet.

And thats quite apart from personal debt, which also exceeds our GDP.

If we carry on like we are, we will soon be spending more on servicing our debts than we do on education. And thats with very benign interest rates. If the cost of borrowing goes up a bit, we could be spending more on debt servicing than healthcare. If the cost goes up moderately, we will end up spending more on debt servicing than anything else. And if the cost goes up dramatically, we will be bankrupt. I dont want that to happen.

Its also fine to say the immigrants are doing the jobs that Brits done want to do, but the reason Brits dont want to do them is that face an effective 95% tax rate the moment they stop watching Jeremy Kyle and start working. I think most right wingers want a system that rewards those who work, rather than penalising them.

Click to expand...

There were years where we were in surplus. Personal debt is entirely separate from national debt. "If we carry on like we are" who said we would? Not one party said that! 95% tax rate is a lie, current tax rates are historically low. there was a period in New York where, on certain investments, you would be taxed 105% of the gain. And people were still rich. If you can live on the job seekers allowance of £50 a week fair dos.

Left wingers would also argue for a system rewarding work, they just perhaps wouldn't reward the bankers that got us into this mess with above inflation rises to their bonuses. ho hum.

I should've learnt my lesson elsewhere, I feel this is my last contribution to this thread as people have opinions, I don't blame them and don't expect to convert them, thus making my polemic pointless.

/goes to watch Che Part 2 - the failed armed struggle in Bolivia

jonewer said:

micmacmoc said:

But UP 'red red labour' ha ha ha ha, if only....we would'nt have gone to war had we a proper red party still. Remember though the public services here are a beacon of what can be achieved, Labour have surely missed a trick in not bellowing loudly about their investment in the NHS, schools etc.

i find it hilarious that the same right wingers tell us about 'broken britain' then whine on how they don't want to share the achievements with immigrants who are coming here to 'take our jobs'. No, looney right wingers, not 'take our jobs'....no no no....to DO our jobs.

Click to expand...

Problem is mate, we dont have the money to pay for the public services in their current form.

We dont.

Sorry.

The facts speak for themselves. We borrowed upwards of £163,000,000,000 this year just to keep things running. Thats not sustainable. Ask a Greek. And we have been running substantial deficits for the past 7 years at least, and that was boom time! The simple truth is our public debt far exceeds out GDP, possibly as much as threefold, when you take into account all the stuff that Brown shifted off the balance sheet.

And thats quite apart from personal debt, which also exceeds our GDP.

If we carry on like we are, we will soon be spending more on servicing our debts than we do on education. And thats with very benign interest rates. If the cost of borrowing goes up a bit, we could be spending more on debt servicing than healthcare. If the cost goes up moderately, we will end up spending more on debt servicing than anything else. And if the cost goes up dramatically, we will be bankrupt. I dont want that to happen.

Its also fine to say the immigrants are doing the jobs that Brits done want to do, but the reason Brits dont want to do them is that face an effective 95% tax rate the moment they stop watching Jeremy Kyle and start working. I think most right wingers want a system that rewards those who work, rather than penalising them.

Click to expand...

Sense :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Get the scroungers earning a living rather than making things worse for the current workers paying tax.

UP

ano said:

There were years where we were in surplus. Personal debt is entirely separate from national debt. "If we carry on like we are" who said we would? Not one party said that! 95% tax rate is a lie, current tax rates are historically low. there was a period in New York where, on certain investments, you would be taxed 105% of the gain. And people were still rich. If you can live on the job seekers allowance of £50 a week fair dos.

Left wingers would also argue for a system rewarding work, they just perhaps wouldn't reward the bankers that got us into this mess with above inflation rises to their bonuses. ho hum.

I should've learnt my lesson elsewhere, I feel this is my last contribution to this thread as people have opinions, I don't blame them and don't expect to convert them, thus making my polemic pointless.

/goes to watch Che Part 2 - the failed armed struggle in Bolivia

Click to expand...

I'm sorry you feel that it isnt worth discussing but maybe a few points?

1. The effective tax rate takes into account loss of benefits as well as tax paid on earnings. Because you lose benefits when you take up a minimum wage job as well as paying income and NI tax, then your effective tax rate can be as high as 95%. In other words, its hardly worth bothering getting up in the morning.

2. Taxes arent historically low. They arent historically high either, but you still spend 40% of your working year paying tax and only 60% earning for yourself.

3. Its of note that it was Labour who dropped the 10p tax rate, Labour who set up the lax regulatory system that allowed banks to behave as they did, Labour who encouraged the banks to behave as they did ("I want to encourage the risk takers" - G. Brown), Labour who encouraged a house price bubble, Labour who bailed the banks out with £100s of billions of taxpayers money, and Labour who appointed Fred "The Shred" Goodwin as special advisor to the treasury and then gave him a knighthood.

4. Labour has doubled spending between 2001 and 2010 leaving us with a £160+billion deficit. If spending had grown in line with inflation only then we would now be running at a surplus of over £260billion. That would be enough to wipe out the deficit in a single year as well as abolishing all NI tax still have enough change to spare for the odd aircraft carrier.

Ho hum indeed.