Oxygen issues with racking to a secondary?

Steviewell · Mar 24, 2016

Hi all, a little thought I was pondering on and would really appreciate any input please?

When I rack to my FV (glass demi) I leave a little headspace to stop an explosion. My understanding is any air (including oxygen) present in this headspace escapes through the airlock as the fermentation process churns out CO2 to replace it (any excess CO2 generated over the next 7-10 days then in turn escapes through the airlock, hence the bubbling... and lack of explosion!).

I sometimes rack to a secondary to leave behind the "crud" and make a nice clear beer. However, at this point fermentation is pretty much complete so surely CO2 is no longer being produced and therefore air (inc oxygen) remains with the beer. Does this not cause off flavours?

Godsdog · Mar 24, 2016

Steviewell said:
Hi all, a little thought I was pondering on and would really appreciate any input please?

When I rack to my FV (glass demi) I leave a little headspace to stop an explosion. My understanding is any air (including oxygen) present in this headspace escapes through the airlock as the fermentation process churns out CO2 to replace it (any excess CO2 generated over the next 7-10 days then in turn escapes through the airlock, hence the bubbling... and lack of explosion!).

I sometimes rack to a secondary to leave behind the "crud" and make a nice clear beer. However, at this point fermentation is pretty much complete so surely CO2 is no longer being produced and therefore air (inc oxygen) remains with the beer. Does this not cause off flavours?

the golden rule as ive always been told is when transferring from primary to secondry avoid splashing which will infuse the dreaded oxygen into the finished beer so use a long syphon tube into the secondry

JapanBrew · Mar 24, 2016

That's kind of my thinking. I don't secondary much but thinking about, makes you wonder.
I know it's still releasing co2 but not at a high rate. Can others chime in on this?

Steviewell · Mar 25, 2016

Godsdog said:
the golden rule as ive always been told is when transferring from primary to secondry avoid splashing which will infuse the dreaded oxygen into the finished beer so use a long syphon tube into the secondry

Hi godsdog understand this and I do, but what about the o2 in the headspace?

Steviewell · Mar 25, 2016

Understand re aeration during transfer, but it's specifically the headspace that makes me wonder. Maybe racking to a secondary earlier would help?

terrym · Mar 25, 2016

As I have said elsewhere on here I usually rack off to a secondary FV when the primary has all but finished. I do this purely to help reduce the yeast load, which it does. On normal strength beers this is about 7 days on from pitching, and I will then usually dry hop for five or six days in this second FV.
I am careful not to splash when I transfer over but not paranoid about it. At this stage the remaining yeast is still active and will slowly establish a layer of CO2 above the brew.
I have never noticed any problems with oxidation or things related. And my guess is that there no difference in taste between a beer that stays in the original FV for fully two weeks compared to one that is racked off as I do.

simon12 · Mar 25, 2016

I think home brewers are far to worried about oxygen as long as there is still some live yeast left it can deal with short term exposure also there will still be some disolved CO2 in the beer which will leave and form a new layer on top. Small scale bottling solutions for microbreweries expose the beer to loads of air and its never a problem. It is always a good idea to avoid exposure to air as much as you can but its not worth worrying about and I don't remember ever reading a thread on this forum about a beer spoilt by oxidation.

terrym · Mar 25, 2016

simon12 said:
I think home brewers are far to worried about oxygen as long as there is still some live yeast left it can deal with short term exposure also there will still be some dissolved CO2 in the beer which will leave and form a new layer on top..... It is always a good idea to avoid exposure to air as much as you can but its not worth worrying about and I don't remember ever reading a thread on this forum about a beer spoilt by oxidation.

Spot on imo. :thumb:

MrDasherD · Mar 25, 2016

simon12 said:
I think home brewers are far to worried about oxygen as long as there is still some live yeast left it can deal with short term exposure also there will still be some disolved CO2 in the beer which will leave and form a new layer on top. Small scale bottling solutions for microbreweries expose the beer to loads of air and its never a problem. It is always a good idea to avoid exposure to air as much as you can but its not worth worrying about and I don't remember ever reading a thread on this forum about a beer spoilt by oxidation.

Couldn't agree more!:thumb:

Cwrw666 · Mar 25, 2016

Always seems strange to me that beer brewers are always been told to take such care to avoid oxygenating their finished beer, whereas on this same forum, wine makers are told to whisk their wine like crazy when it's finished fermenting to `de-gas it'.

dad_of_jon · Mar 25, 2016

Steviewell said:
Understand re aeration during transfer, but it's specifically the headspace that makes me wonder. Maybe racking to a secondary earlier would help?

I fill my secondary with co2 and syphon into bucket.

dad_of_jon · Mar 25, 2016

simon12 said:
I think home brewers are far to worried about oxygen as long as there is still some live yeast left it can deal with short term exposure also there will still be some disolved CO2 in the beer which will leave and form a new layer on top. Small scale bottling solutions for microbreweries expose the beer to loads of air and its never a problem. It is always a good idea to avoid exposure to air as much as you can but its not worth worrying about and I don't remember ever reading a thread on this forum about a beer spoilt by oxidation.

wet cardboard , burnt sherry notes

the sherry taste would actually work well in some beers.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=100173

MyQul · Mar 25, 2016

dad_of_jon said:
wet cardboard , burnt sherry notes

the sherry taste would actually work well in some beers.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=100173

I think old ales can have some of the sherry taste/is not considered an off flavour

JapanBrew · Mar 25, 2016

simon12 said:
I think home brewers are far to worried about oxygen as long as there is still some live yeast left it can deal with short term exposure also there will still be some disolved CO2 in the beer which will leave and form a new layer on top. Small scale bottling solutions for microbreweries expose the beer to loads of air and its never a problem. It is always a good idea to avoid exposure to air as much as you can but its not worth worrying about and I don't remember ever reading a thread on this forum about a beer spoilt by oxidation.

I think that hits it right there. I've never really panicked but it is good hearing from more experienced hands. I too have never had an oxidation problem. I worried once when a syphon had a crack in it and mid way through it started sucking in air... But that batch was fine!!! My conclusion is yeast still use up a bit of oxygen.

Dad is doing the best way but many of us don't have gas. Well, I have gas but that kind just won't work!!!

GHW · Mar 26, 2016

The easy way to avoid worry is not rack to secondary. I never do and not sure why you'd bother. If you're bottling it's easy enough to adjust your cane as you go along and not get any trub in the bottles til the last one or two. I usually mark those few so that if they are iffy I know why.

Happy to be informed otherwise but at the moment I see using a secondary as slightly over complicating things.

dad_of_jon · Mar 26, 2016

JapanBrew said:
I think that hits it right there. I've never really panicked but it is good hearing from more experienced hands. I too have never had an oxidation problem. I worried once when a syphon had a crack in it and mid way through it started sucking in air... But that batch was fine!!! My conclusion is yeast still use up a bit of oxygen.

Dad is doing the best way but many of us don't have gas. Well, I have gas but that kind just won't work!!!

I had a pint of senses working overtime by revolution brewery that smelt like someone had farted into in, that wasn't you Japan? :-o

you too can have lots of gas

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B012AJ6ZJI/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00G9A7LVQ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

terrym · Mar 26, 2016

Garethhuwwilliams said:
The easy way to avoid worry is not rack to secondary. I never do and not sure why you'd bother. If you're bottling it's easy enough to adjust your cane as you go along and not get any trub in the bottles til the last one or two. I usually mark those few so that if they are iffy I know why.

Happy to be informed otherwise but at the moment I see using a secondary as slightly over complicating things.

I rack off as I said above and don't worry, why should I, about what?
Its not complicated.
I do it to reduce the suspended yeast load, which it does.
Therefore, for me, the benefits outweigh the short time it takes to do it.
Its purely a matter of choice, some do, some don't.

Twostage · Mar 26, 2016

terrym said:
I rack off as I said above and don't worry, why should I, about what?
Its not complicated.
I do it to reduce the suspended yeast load, which it does.
Therefore, for me, the benefits outweigh the short time it takes to do it.
Its purely a matter of choice, some do, some don't.

So you do it as a kind of 'warm crash' to help clarify the beer ?

I have read that trub from the boil can help with initial stages of fermentation (even replacing the need for aeration) but can cause flavour issues eventually so racking could allow you to keep the beer in the second vessel for a long time.

I suppose it would be possible to rack into a pressure barrel before fermentation is complete so the carbonation happens from the initial fermentation.

terrym · Mar 26, 2016

Twostage said:
So you do it as a kind of 'warm crash' to help clarify the beer ?

Usually three days in the warm in my water bath, followed by two or three days in the coldest place I have which is my unheated garage, the temperature of which is a few degrees above ambient, so 'cold' doesn't really apply in summer. All usually in parallel with a dry hop. So my experience is to reduce the suspended yeast carried forward to bottles/PB by about 75%, but there is still enough yeast left to finish the primary and start the 'clean up'.

GHW · Mar 26, 2016

terrym said:
I rack off as I said above and don't worry, why should I, about what?
Its not complicated.
I do it to reduce the suspended yeast load, which it does.
Therefore, for me, the benefits outweigh the short time it takes to do it.
Its purely a matter of choice, some do, some don't.

Of course, it's like everything on brewing, we all have our preferences and methods.

My 'worry' remark was for the op though, who does have concerns about using a secondary, that are easily avoided by not bothering with one.

I'm sure Steviewell will come to his preferred method either way.

Oxygen issues with racking to a secondary?

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