Lager.. advice please

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Birkin

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I'm contemplating a lager, I've done a couple of lagers before but never been completely happy with them.

I want a really clean tasting lager that isn't overly hopped, I'm the opposite of a hop head. Hippy beers are alright for a couple, but I like lager.

I actually find it a bit frustrating when brewers look down on commercial lager, making a good clean tasting lager is not an easy thing to do

I just wondered if anyone has any thoughts on making a good clean lager?

Any good recipes?

The last one I made was with untreated tap water, I used a white labs liquid yeast and fermented at 12 C in a temp controlled fridge. I don't have the fridge anymore (do still have the temp controller.. another old fridge in the garage is an option..). I forget exactly what the recipe was, it was a while ago, I seen to remember lager malts, some carapils and a hallertau hersbrucker at the start of the boil.

Then after fermenting it out I bottle conditioned it and aged it for a couple of months somewhere cold before drinking.

It was good but needed the time to settle before it really tasted good, but it wasnt as clean as I would have liked...

Anyways, if anyone reading this has any thoughts please share :)
 
I did my first lager the other month and it was super simple and is incredibly clean and bright with a lovely aftertaste.
Simply used pale malt and saaz hops with bohemian lager yeast (mangrove jack's)
 
What sort of lager would you like to brew? Any particular commercial beer you'd like to get close to?
 
I made the Vienna Lager AG kit from Malt Miller a few months ago. That has a lovely biscuity flavour. I've just brewed it again today coincidentally for my dad's Father's Day present. It was 22 quid including two yeast sachets. I followed the Brulosophy lager fermenting guide and it came out really well.
The yeast took about 4 days to kick in but then went off really well.
Screenshot_20190504-190523_GFConnect.jpg
 
I actually find it a bit frustrating when brewers look down on commercial lager, making a good clean tasting lager is not an easy thing to do
I agree with you entirely, without the benefit of filtration, home-brewed lagers can take ages to clear. I went through a spell of using a protein degrading enzyme or even using a protein rest, but it didn't seem to speed up the process- just made the beer taste thinner. I think the answer is in getting the mash pH just right. In any case, the longer stored, the better, and once fermentation is well and truly over, the bottles don't have to kept chilled.
My Holy Grail is Pilsner Urquell. I've had some nice experiences along the way, but haven't got it spot on yet and I've had a good number of attempts.
 
I've been thinking along the lines of filtration, mash PH and water quality.. I'll have to pay more attention to those to begin with. I'm not hugely fussy with commercial lagers - my favourites are Heineken, San Miguel, Grolsh and maybe Export. I'm not keen on the 4% lagers, they taste a bit too watery, from the many lagers or light beers I've tried I reckon 4.8-5% is just right.

I've heard using pale malt and saaz makes a nice lager before - I might give that a try.

I've always thought with lagers the worst thing you can do is overcomplicate the recipe for ingredients, focus on the mash..

If I had to pick, I'd say Grolsh is my favourite, Its that Dutch lager twang that I like with a lovely crystal clear sparkling body, the hops are unintrusive but balance out the light malt body nicely.

What about Yeast, any preferred lager yeasts and does it have to be liquid?
 
I'd recommend Fermentis Saflager 34/70 or Mangrove Jacks Bohemian Lager. Both have a bit of character. The first one stinks to high heaven, but leaves the beer clean and fresh. The latter can have some distinctly odd characteristics but always comes good in the end. Both are dried yeasts. Both will ferment drier than Grolsch.
In spite of the weight of hate against Grolsch, I don't mind it either. Or, at least, didn't ten years ago. Maybe it's changed.
You won't go wrong with pale malt and Saaz. You could use pilsner malt to get a cleaner taste and add some carapils for head retention and body. Saaz can have a very low alpha acid content so you could use Magnum for bittering and put even more Saaz in at the end. That's not overcomplicating things.
Wouldn't bother with filtering, but there'll be the slightest of slight hazes. Correct pH with acid malt. Don't overdo it.
 
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The recipe to recreate something like a Grolsch or San Miguel should be pretty simple. I'd go for something like 90-95% pilsner malt and the rest flaked rice or corn to lighten the body and give a nice crisp finish, mashed at 65°c. A single bittering hop addition to around 20 IBU and fermented with 2 packets of S-23 or W34/70 yeast at 10°c then lagered for 4 weeks as cold as you can get it.

Edit: yeast typo fixed
 
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You deffo need to use rice and flaked corn or (packet quick micro rice as its precooked and ordinary cornflakes is what I use) to get that clean lager look and taste in my opinion
 
You deffo need to use rice and flaked corn or (packet quick micro rice as its precooked and ordinary cornflakes is what I use) to get that clean lager look and taste in my opinion
You don't need corn or rice unless you're trying to copy a light-bodied lager like Budweiser (rice) or Peroni (corn) and in the case of the American styles you'd probably miss anyway because their use of these adjuncts was initially done to make their 6-row barley taste more like European 2-row. The finest (in my opinion) lagers are Czech and German and they contain only malted barley, often just 100% continental pilsner malt.
 
The recipe to recreate something like a Grolsch or San Miguel should be pretty simple. I'd go for something like 90-95% pilsner malt and the rest flaked rice or corn to lighten the body and give a nice crisp finish, mashed at 65°c. A single bittering hop addition to around 20 IBU and fermented with 2 packets of S-33 or W34/70 yeast at 10°c then lagered for 4 weeks as cold as you can get it.
Wouldn't that be Saflager S-23, S-33 is a Belgian strain?

I used S-23 at the weekend and noticed that the pitch rate advice on the Saflager range packets has changed. It now reads 11.5g per 10 to 15 litres of wort pitched at room temperature, 2x11.5g for 10-15 litres at 11-15°c. W34/70 also appears to have been reduced from 11.5g per 20-30 litres to 10-15.
 
Wouldn't that be Saflager S-23, S-33 is a Belgian strain?

I used S-23 at the weekend and noticed that the pitch rate advice on the Saflager range packets has changed. It now reads 11.5g per 10 to 15 litres of wort pitched at room temperature, 2x11.5g for 10-15 litres at 11-15°c. W34/70 also appears to have been reduced from 11.5g per 20-30 litres to 10-15.
The things companies will do to sell more product! If it worked before and it's the same amount of yeast, it'll work today. Rehydrating instead of sprinkling is said to double the effective number of viable cells- and they do say sprinkle on the packet. Their website, on the other hand, offers the choice of rehydratring.
Why does a company selling sachets for the homebrew market not make the sachet big enough for a standard size homebrew of 20-23 litres? All about profit!!!
 
Sure, that's one way you could look at it @An Ankoù. Or, a happy customer is a returning customer, so they supply their products with the advice to return the best results.

The advice to (and from) the brewing industry appears to be moving towards rehydration being an unnecessary step. And that pitching into wort doesn't affect the yeast viability.

I guess they are geared to 11.5g packaging and there's no standard in pitch rate even at 20-23l when you consider OG.

Either way, merely pointing out that their advice has changed. For those that choose to follow it.
 
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Sure, that's one way you could look at it @An Ankoù. Or, a happy customer is a returning customer, so they supply their products with the advice to return the best results.

The advice to (and from) the brewing industry appears to be moving towards rehydration being an unnecessary step. And that pitching into wort doesn't affect the yeast viability.

I guess they are geared to 11.5g packaging and there's no standard in pitch rate even at 20-23l when you consider OG.
You're more forgiving than I am, clearly. Another example of this "merchandising" is Mangrove Jacks: from their Craft Series information sheet:

As a result of the drying process,
Mangrove Jack’s Craft Series dried
yeasts will not achieve the optimal
results when harvesting and/or
repitching. For best results, use a
fresh packet of yeast with every brew.

I haven't used the whole range of their yeasts, but of the four or five I have used, I've harvested and repitched down several generations and had no problems whatsoever.

Of course, if a brew goes off through poor sanitation then the yeast is likely to get the blame and so the labs are just covering their backs to reduce the incidence of infection. And that's about the kindest gloss I can bring myself to put on the matter!
 
You're more forgiving than I am, clearly. Another example of this "merchandising" is Mangrove Jacks: from their Craft Series information sheet:

As a result of the drying process,
Mangrove Jack’s Craft Series dried
yeasts will not achieve the optimal
results when harvesting and/or
repitching. For best results, use a
fresh packet of yeast with every brew.

I haven't used the whole range of their yeasts, but of the four or five I have used, I've harvested and repitched down several generations and had no problems whatsoever.

Of course, if a brew goes off through poor sanitation then the yeast is likely to get the blame and so the labs are just covering their backs to reduce the incidence of infection. And that's about the kindest gloss I can bring myself to put on the matter!

I used the same MJ Bohemian for around a year. Could not notice any drift. Recently repitched with new yeast and not expecting any difference.
 
Wouldn't that be Saflager S-23, S-33 is a Belgian strain?

I used S-23 at the weekend and noticed that the pitch rate advice on the Saflager range packets has changed. It now reads 11.5g per 10 to 15 litres of wort pitched at room temperature, 2x11.5g for 10-15 litres at 11-15°c. W34/70 also appears to have been reduced from 11.5g per 20-30 litres to 10-15.
Damn, I think that might the answer to a few of my lagers going kind of bad. I used to sing the praises of this yeast and the last couple of lagers came out tasting more like wheat beers than lagers. If I've been underpitching (my batches are 25L) that would explain the clove and banana flavours. I thought it might be temperature fluctuations, but this yeast has previously been able to handle temp fluctuations.
 
You don't need corn or rice unless you're trying to copy a light-bodied lager like Budweiser (rice) or Peroni (corn) and in the case of the American styles you'd probably miss anyway because their use of these adjuncts was initially done to make their 6-row barley taste more like European 2-row. The finest (in my opinion) lagers are Czech and German and they contain only malted barley, often just 100% continental pilsner malt.
Hi Foxbat I think the OP specified his preference for certain lagers which contain generally Rice, Corn , sugar and other adjuncts. You are giving your opinion of the best lager for you and probably most educated lager drinkers and I would not argue with that but he did specify Grolsch, heineken etc and that is why I said he would definitely need these adjuncts
 
Damn, I think that might the answer to a few of my lagers going kind of bad. I used to sing the praises of this yeast and the last couple of lagers came out tasting more like wheat beers than lagers. If I've been underpitching (my batches are 25L) that would explain the clove and banana flavours. I thought it might be temperature fluctuations, but this yeast has previously been able to handle temp fluctuations.
Doing a Google image search, it looks like the Saflager S-23 packaging advice changed around the end of 2016. Does the tie in with your issue?
 
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