Lager.. advice please

the baron said:

Hi Foxbat I think the OP specified his preference for certain lagers which contain generally Rice, Corn , sugar and other adjuncts. You are giving your opinion of the best lager for you and probably most educated lager drinkers and I would not argue with that but he did specify Grolsch, heineken etc and that is why I said he would definitely need these adjuncts

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Have you got a source for Grolsch and Heineken being adjunct beers? Both of them claim on their official websites to contain only malted barley, hops and water. e.g. for Grolsch, click here and expand "additional information". The ingredients are completely listed.

Sadfield said:

Doing a Google image search, it looks like the Saflager S-23 packaging advice changed around the end of 2016. Does the tie in with your issue?

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Last time I made a straight up helles/pils would have been 2016. Since then any time I used this yeast it would be for a rauchpils or dopplebock, basically a beer with strong flavours from elsewhere so clove and banana would have been hard to detect. I've only started using it again for 'cleaner' styles in the past 3 or so months. It's very possible there is a correlation.

91% Weyermann Pilsner (or) Swaen Pilsner
7% Weyermann CaraHell (or) Swaen GoldSwaen_Hell
2% Acidulated Malt (Weyermann or Swaen), or more as needed to mash at pH 5.4

16 IBU's worth of Magnum hops boiled for 60 minutes
11 IBU's worth of Hallertau hops boiled for 15 minutes

Roughly 75 mg/L each for ions: Ca++, Cl-, & SO4--

W-34/70 yeast, ferment at 54 degrees

Sadfield said:

Wouldn't that be Saflager S-23, S-33 is a Belgian strain?
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S-33 isn't a Belgian strain, it's reportedly the old Edme strain. Genetic testing has shown it to be very closely related to windsor.

MrRook said:

S-33 isn't a Belgian strain, it's reportedly the old Edme strain. Genetic testing has shown it to be very closely related to windsor.

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Ah Ok, thanks. Although Fermentis do recommend it for Trappist beers.

Sadfield said:

Ah Ok, thanks. Although Fermentis do recommend it for Trappist beers.

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Lots of homebrew shops still also list it as "Belgian" .

I didn't mean to abandon this thread! I got distracted with trying to make Gin.
I love this forum, reading through the responses you guys are just helpful, and no one gets salty when someone else doesn't agree with them!

Some great advice here - Its good to hear that dried yeasts work well - I'm sure I've read good things about Saflager Yeasts in the past (or maybe a past life ) .I had one in the fridge as a reserve in case my liquid yeast didn't survive the journey, but it's been a while since my last lager and the date is well out on it now. Best chuck it.

I'll do some reading about water PH, need to refresh my memory - want to get the water just right this time and I need to buy a cheap old garage fridge before I can start.

I'm thinking Saaz, and pilsner malt with a bit of carapils for head retention. I'll have to fire up beersmith to tweak the recipe, for Grolsh I didn't think I would need any adjuncts - just the taste of it, that Grolsh stank feels more like yeast twang to me , but I could be wrong.

I'm going to move to kegging this one, bottles are a pain and I want to force carbonate - might try primary, transfer to secondary for lagering then filter to keg and force carbonate . I usually second it in the bottle then drink but it leaves a lot of sediment in the bottle.

I'm looking forward to this, another thing I really want to try is a sour stout, but that's a discussion for another thread.. or I'll distract myself with that instead!

Birkin,
Don't chuck that yeast. Kept in the fridge dry yeast only loses about 4% of it's vitality a year. If nothing else pitch it along with a fresher one or another old one.

Daft really, never even thought of pitching it alongside a fresh yeast, that's a cracking idea!

Birkin said:

Daft really, never even thought of pitching it alongside a fresh yeast, that's a cracking idea!

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I've used yeasts well out of date. Rehydrate and pitch. What's the point of pitching alongside a fresh yeast when the fresh yeast is going to work anyway?
Keep the fresh one in reserve in case the old one is well and truly pining for the fjords.

An Ankoù said:

I've used yeasts well out of date. Rehydrate and pitch. What's the point of pitching alongside a fresh yeast when the fresh yeast is going to work anyway?
Keep the fresh one in reserve in case the old one is well and truly pining for the fjords.

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I've done that when the recipe calls for 15 grams and the fresh one has only 11. I figure why throw in another new one when the old one has enough viability to cover the shortage.

Alright, while trying to find someone selling a cheap fridge for this, been doing some digging into water treatment. According to the water board, my water is:

Moderately soft
(ppm)
Calcium - 40
Sodium - 7
Sulphate - 59
Chloride - 9
CaCO3 - 100

I've been trying to figure out how to treat this to make it ideal for lager, but i'm really struggling to figure out what exactly I should be aiming for.

There's a lot of conflicting information on the old inter web. So far research suggests CaCO3 is too high, Ca should be about 50 and Sulphates, i've read that it should be both less, and more from different sources.

Any thoughts?

I just need to settle on what i'm aiming for then figure out the maths!

Back in the day, I used to use something called CRS from Brupaks. You can find all the info you need on the Brupaks website. I came to the conclusion that it was just a hydrochloric acid solution and when I ran out I started using rainwater and adding salts to it or correcting the pH with Acid Malt.

Birkin said:

Alright, while trying to find someone selling a cheap fridge for this, been doing some digging into water treatment. According to the water board, my water is:

Moderately soft
(ppm)
Calcium - 40
Sodium - 7
Sulphate - 59
Chloride - 9
CaCO3 - 100

I've been trying to figure out how to treat this to make it ideal for lager, but i'm really struggling to figure out what exactly I should be aiming for.

There's a lot of conflicting information on the old inter web. So far research suggests CaCO3 is too high, Ca should be about 50 and Sulphates, i've read that it should be both less, and more from different sources.

Any thoughts?

I just need to settle on what i'm aiming for then figure out the maths!

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Your water isn't too bad actually, for a lager all you'll need to do is reduce the alkalinity (CaCO3) to around 20 ppm, everything else is fine as is.

The easiest way to reduce alkalinity is through an acid addition. Add 0.15 ml/L of lactic acid or 0.42 ml/L of CRS, both of which are available from most homebrew stores.

Thanks, that sounds like just the ticket!

Found some good advice on their website too..

It's all coming together now, so I can use CRS to reduce alkalinity by removing Carbonates while I will need to bring my Calcium levels up, they have DRS for that..

I guess the CO3 becomes CO2 + O as it dissociates, therefore will need to remove the CO2 from the brew before adding the Ca back in, I think I red oxygenating works well for that.

The plan is coming together... :)

Cheers, I mentioned briefly a while back that I'd like to have a go at a sour mash stout - i'm wondering how a sour mash lager would taste, the need to add an acidic soured partial mash might tie in well with reducing alkalinity. That's for another day though, I'll focus on getting the lager right first!

For most styles you'll want to increase the calcium to around 100 ppm, but don't use DLS/DWB, use gypsum or calcium chloride.

CRS is a blend of hydrochloric and sulphuric acids, so the reaction with calcium carbonate produces water, CO2, calcium chloride, and calcium sulphate (gypsum).

Using lactic acid produces calcium lactate which can leave a bit of a twang at high enough levels, but you'll be fine with the amount required.

Still can't figure out how to delete a spurious post.

Birkin said:

Thanks, that sounds like just the ticket!

Found some good advice on their website too..

It's all coming together now, so I can use CRS to reduce alkalinity by removing Carbonates while I will need to bring my Calcium levels up, they have DRS for that..

I guess the CO3 becomes CO2 + O as it dissociates, therefore will need to remove the CO2 from the brew before adding the Ca back in, I think I red oxygenating works well for that.
The plan is coming together... :)

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I think it's 2HCl + Ca(HCO3)2 => CaCl2 + 2CO2 + 2H20
but it's been a long time since O level chemistry. The Calcium Chloride is beneficial and will help reduce the pH. No need to worry overmuch about the carbon dioxide, just aerate as normal.

I see that Steve says there’s Sulphuric acid in there, too. Nothing to worry about, the principle's the same you'll just get a bit less calcium chloride and some calcium sulphate.

An Ankoù said:

Still can't figure out how to delete a spurious post.

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Members can edit their posts for a short time only moderators and admins can delete them.

If any member wants one of their posts editing or deleting contact me or the mods by personal message with a link to the thread and the post number.

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