Camra

peebee · Jun 10, 2019

MickDundee said:
The craft beer thing has been going for 10 years or more now, how long does it have to go in before is stops being “some whim of what is in vogue?

Don't know. But you are pointing out that I am missing a comma and connecting "some whim" with "craft beer". That wasn't my intention, sorry. I'll correct it …

The important thing was that British "Real Ale" is a style and shouldn't be allowed to disappear or morph into something it isn't.

strange-steve said:
Isn't that what CAMRGB supposedly do?

Hadn't heard of them, which suggests they need to put their back in to it a bit more? Or perhaps they are not that serious?

Sadfield · Jun 10, 2019

peebee said:
The important thing was that British "Real Ale" is a style and shouldn't be allowed to disappear or morph into something it isn't

Isn't that the problem though? it isn't a style. The phrase "Real Ale" is only marginally older and no less an irrelevant slogan than "craft ale", in the general scheme of British brewing. Yes, it has a definition, but a weak one based on storage and dispense, that can be applied to most modern keg and imported bottled beer.

peebee · Jun 10, 2019

Sadfield said:
Isn't that the problem though? it isn't a style. The phrase "Real Ale" is only marginally older and no less an irrelevant slogan than "craft ale", in the general scheme of British brewing. Yes, it has a definition, but a weak one based on storage and dispense, that can be applied to most modern keg and imported bottled beer.

Okay, so I shouldn't have used the word "style" either. Hey, no-one else seems to get picked up for their grammatical misdemeanours, but I seem to be having a bad day? I believe I am perfectly correct that it's wrong for a threatened method of "storage and dispense" that has an organised champion for it (CAMRA) to have that "champion" targeted for criticism because it excludes listing Pubs selling beers that in no-way fits into the methods that it always has supported.

I try not to make inflammatory remarks (these days) hence I spell "Real Ale" capitalised, in quotes, and even appended with "[sic]" (i.e. "their words, not mine"). There shouldn't be any confusion as to what I mean, but I still get vilified for my comments. ("Vilified" might be over-the-top, but I reckon I can be paranoid if I want to be … ).

bobukbrewer · Jun 10, 2019

I contacted CAMRA a few years ago (when they were totally opposed to top pressure even if that pressure was .000000001 bar over atmospheric pressure) with an idea to protect the beer in the cask from oxidation and bacterial contamination for at least 10 days. I explained to them that struggling pubs do not sell the beer quick enough and hence serve bad beer which further drives customers away. Basically it was - say - a scrap 18 gallon barrel (open topped) ( ie say a 1 mm hole in the top) filled with CO2. Perhaps 3 lines from the BOTTOM of this container to 3 beer barrels via the spile hole. So when a pint is pulled, a pint of CO2 enters the barrel.

Not saying this is perfect solution, but experts on here could fine tune it and a landlord could try it out. If the CO2 feed to the 18 gallon reservoir was set to 2 pints a minute that would protect 3 barrels without excessive cost of CO2.................

-Bezza- · Jun 10, 2019

I'd not heard for CAMRGB until now but I think this sums up things pretty well:

We are uncomfortable with the stranglehold that CAMRA and its rules has over British brewing.
The imposing of rules about kegs and casks, yeast quotients etc. are holding back the world of modern brewing in the UK and is definitely alienating many many people in the UK who would otherwise start drinking the products of our small brewers and enjoying them.
There’s a whole generation of younger people who look at the archetypal CAMRA member as a beard wearing, sandal sporting beer geek.
That is a great shame.

I am no doubt stereotyping but doggedly maintaining a view on something where tastes have moved on and production methods have developed is stifling. It's like some trade union of beer drinkers holding back innovation and progression.

Sadfield · Jun 10, 2019

peebee said:
Okay, so I shouldn't have used the word "style" either. Hey, no-one else seems to get picked up for their grammatical misdemeanours, but I seem to be having a bad day? I believe I am perfectly correct that it's wrong for a threatened method of "storage and dispense" that has an organised champion for it (CAMRA) to have that "champion" targeted for criticism because it excludes listing Pubs selling beers that in no-way fits into the methods that it always has supported.

I try not to make inflammatory remarks (these days) hence I spell "Real Ale" capitalised, in quotes, and even appended with "[sic]" (i.e. "their words, not mine"). There shouldn't be any confusion as to what I mean, but I still get vilified for my comments. ("Vilified" might be over-the-top, but I reckon I can be paranoid if I want to be … ).

Whoah...I wasn't picking up grammatical misdemeanours, and would have used "Real Ale" and "craft ale" to imply they're not my words, also. My point, is that CAMRA definition is nonsense now, and would have been in the late 1800's. And very well hidden on their website.

stz · Jun 10, 2019

Interesting diversion. Is the preservation of british cask ale about the style, dispense method or both? 90% of the time I'm shoe horning what is essentially american keg beer into cask anyway. Isn't british cask ale a constantly fluid definition? A bit like language, constantly defined by actual usage? Otherwise you'd have to create a clarification between current and historical styles. From a beer quality perspective I dislike a lot of things about cask anyway. I'm at the mercy of the publican who ultimately can quite easily serve a bad pint to a customer who will generally blame the brewery.

CD · Jun 10, 2019

peebee said:
You'll have to excuse me for having a rant, but I'm a bit protective about that work on cask conditioned (which you kindly complimented) for which I took some heavy criticism from both "sides" at the time of writing it. Not least from Graham W. (on another forum) because I'm advocating CO2 "top-pressure". As a result I had to carefully word it to ensure I'm only claiming to "emulate" cask conditioned beer in a home-brew environment. You could not trust folk to use these techniques in a commercial environment because the techniques would get abused. I did present that work for publication on this site so I wouldn't have to link to my "Google" storage, but it never came about probably because such an article would have a very minority appeal on this site. This site mainly favours "American" style keg "craft beer" <sic> which has been no bad thing for the home-brewing world as far greater numbers of folk now churn out palatable home-brew - one of my favourite brews is a "DIYDog" published recipe for "5am Saint" (American Amber style).

But I do get wound up by calls for CAMRA to relax their attitude to "cask breathers". I dug out your earlier posts looking for the "Noddy" system @An Ankoù mentioned above (https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/draught-beer.81405/) and was surprised by @foxy's post that CAMRA have relaxed their attitude towards "breathers" again, and don't keep Pubs using them excluded from their "book". I believe they should toughen up their stance instead. Making these exceptions is great where they are due, but opens the door to abuse and confusion. You've already got the likes of Brewdog churning out some very fizzy "cask beer" that fits the rules CAMRA draw up to have it accepted as "Real Ale"; the weakened stance of CAMRA allows Brewdog to walk all over their "rules" with offerings that are not at all in the spirit of what CAMRA originally stood for, and as a result help threaten a style of beer (British "Real Ale", err … <sic>, 'cos I must try to be impartial) all over again.

BTW: I'd have stuck me oar in if I'd seen your "draught-beer" thread at the time, but I was sticking my head into miscellaneous Sicilian volcanos during that period.

I do seem to have opened up a can of worms with this post, and must too apologise for having a rant. The thing is, having been using a cask breather – which I only knew about because Homark Ltd suggested I use one when I called in to collect their specially modified wine pump – and finding my beer kept perfectly, and tasted (to me) so much better not being on top CO2 pressure, I got really cross over the ill-informed letters that began to appear in ‘What’s Brewing’ in 2000.

For example, someone said that he could tell if a pub was using a cask breather as he had to whisk his pint with a cocktail stick to remove excess gas from it, and somebody else said that if they were condoned by Camra, what was to stop publicans adjusting them to help force beer up to the bar.

My reply, published in the July 21st issue, was given the banner headline “Anger at Cask Breather Claptrap” by the Editor, whilst adding at the bottom of the page – no doubt to many people’s relief – ‘This correspondence is now closed’.

I honestly can’t see any objection to their use in slow-turnover situations, where the other options are no 'Real Ale', or dodgy 'Real Ale'.

Sadfield · Jun 10, 2019

Coffin Dodger said:
I honestly can’t see any objection to their use in slow-turnover situations, where the other options are no 'Real Ale', or dodgy 'Real Ale'.

Agree, yet I wonder how much damage to cask ale has been done by CAMRAs resistance to adopt cask breathers and also their reluctance to educate members? Campaign For Ruined Ale.

bobukbrewer · Jun 10, 2019

If a pub has few customers they must offer only one real ale, and throw away any beer left in the barrel after 3 days. I will pay a large premium for guaranteed tip top real ale say £2 over local prices - round here £3.80 is the average price.............

CD · Jun 10, 2019

Sadfield said:
Agree, yet I wonder how much damage to cask ale has been done by CAMRAs resistance to adopt cask breathers and also their reluctance to educate members? Campaign For Ruined Ale.

A lot. It only takes one bad pint to put people off drinking it for life.

Lawrence22 · Jun 10, 2019

Here in Northern Ireland Cask drawn ale was a real rarity until quite recently. There were probably a couple of places selling it but I never remember seeing it here in my youth. On several trips to England I tried cask drawn ale and thought it was bloody awful. It was probably past its' best or just not the good stuff. It wasn't until about 12 years ago on a trip to Jersey I had a really good pint of real ale, and I've had a few since. So from my novice point of view this cask breathing idea sounds great.

strange-steve · Jun 10, 2019

Lawrence22 said:
Here in Northern Ireland Cask drawn ale was a real rarity until quite recently.

Outside of Belfast it still is, apart from Wetherspoons, but I still remember my first ever taste of cask ale, a pint of Abbot Ale in Bridge House. Nothing special as far as beers go (and a sh1thole of a pub), but it was a turning point for me and opened my eyes to the fact that beer could actually have flavour to it.

samale · Jun 10, 2019

Lawrence22 said:
Here in Northern Ireland Cask drawn ale was a real rarity until quite recently. There were probably a couple of places selling it but I never remember seeing it here in my youth. On several trips to England I tried cask drawn ale and thought it was bloody awful. It was probably past its' best or just not the good stuff. It wasn't until about 12 years ago on a trip to Jersey I had a really good pint of real ale, and I've had a few since. So from my novice point of view this cask breathing idea sounds great.

I am from Ireland as well I have never seen never mind tasted cask. It's all kegs. Spoons being the exception and you wouldn't go as it's a dive

foxy · Jun 11, 2019

I have posted this before on another thread, I would think common sense should prevail.
https://www.camra.org.uk/press_rele...ture-as-its-members-call-for-positive-change/

Lawrence22 · Jun 11, 2019

samale said:
I am from Ireland as well I have never seen never mind tasted cask. It's all kegs. Spoons being the exception and you wouldn't go as it's a dive

There are a handful of non spoons cask drawn ale bars in Belfast now. The 2 that I would be in are the John Hewitt and the Sunflower. The Sunflower has actually dumped the big breweries and is selling nearly all craft ales from local breweries. Some of it isn't the best, but there are usually a couple of decent pints to be had.

CD · Jun 11, 2019

bobukbrewer said:
I contacted CAMRA a few years ago (when they were totally opposed to top pressure even if that pressure was .000000001 bar over atmospheric pressure) with an idea to protect the beer in the cask from oxidation and bacterial contamination for at least 10 days. I explained to them that struggling pubs do not sell the beer quick enough and hence serve bad beer which further drives customers away. Basically it was - say - a scrap 18 gallon barrel (open topped) ( ie say a 1 mm hole in the top) filled with CO2. Perhaps 3 lines from the BOTTOM of this container to 3 beer barrels via the spile hole. So when a pint is pulled, a pint of CO2 enters the barrel.

Not saying this is perfect solution, but experts on here could fine tune it and a landlord could try it out. If the CO2 feed to the 18 gallon reservoir was set to 2 pints a minute that would protect 3 barrels without excessive cost of CO2.................

Good for you, but I bet you never got a reply.

Justin Dean · Jun 11, 2019

I like to stick to bottle conditioned only. It is rather variable but this is part of the fun. It is more difficult to do this in Casks. I mean one bottle does not carbonate: well fine, but one cask: eek

bobukbrewer · Jun 11, 2019

coffin dodger - I did - from the chairman - saying he could not see the point of my suggestion.......I resigned soon after when they included a scam you have won a prize card with whats brewing...........

peebee · Jun 11, 2019

Justin Dean said:
I like to stick to bottle conditioned only. It is rather variable but this is part of the fun. It is more difficult to do this in Casks. I mean one bottle does not carbonate: well fine, but one cask: eek

At the levels of "carbonation" we're talking about here I think you are very hard pushed not to get your cask sufficiently carbonated. Bottle conditioned and cask conditioned are magnitudes apart. I've never had a cask fail to condition in the last few years, but then I'm probably committing a heinous crime and occasionally (and inadvertently) "force carbonating" (I connect CO2 at up to 2psi - 2psi, wow, certainly no more than that because the regulators are incapable of delivering any more).

Camra

Help Support The Homebrew Forum:

Out of Control

Landlord.

Out of Control

Landlord.

Landlord.

Landlord.

Regular.

Retired Brewer

Landlord.

Landlord.

Retired Brewer

Landlord.

Quantum Brewer

Landlord.

Landlord.

Landlord.

Retired Brewer

Essex

Landlord.

Out of Control

Similar threads

Join the conversation!

Join today and get all the highlights of this community direct to your inbox. It's FREE!