EKG SMaSH - has my boil gone wrong?

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RichHall

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Hey guys

So got another brew going yesterday - my second attempt at brewing, the first attempt had to go down the drain - don't ask!

Anyhow, gone for a SMaSH recipe this time - Maris Otter and East Kent Goldings.

Pitched the yeast this morning, and whilst aerating the wort prior to pitching, noticed it was stirring up a lot of sediment. The wort was a little darker than I expected, whilst the sediment was very light coloured - in fact once it stirred up, the combined colour was more of what I was anticipating.

Is it normal for there to be a lot of sediment pre fermentation? My hops were added via a spider, so I don't think its hop related trub. Does Maris Otter usually generate a lot of trub before fermentation?

And is it usual for the wort to almost be separated into two - the wort on top and sediment on the bottom?

I only ask as the first attempt didn't seem to do this, so wondering if something has gone wrong?

Cheers
 
Its quite normal for this to happen. Its basically solids that are transferred from the mash and hot and cold protein break from the boil and cooling phases. In my limited BIAB partial mash experience it can vary quite a lot dependant upon how well the mash liquor was filtered as it went on to the boil.
 
IME the amount of trub transferred to the fermenter is highly dependent on your process - are you doing BIAB?

When I started last year I did stove-top BIAB, and got a fair amount of trub into the fermenter - using kettle finings at the end of the boil (irish most/protofloc or similar) helped, as did cooling the pot fast in the sink with ice, so most of the trub dropped to the bottom of the pan (after which you can carefully syphon off the clear wort, and accept losing some of the volume in the kettle).

Since I switch to an all-in-one system (robobrew) I'm getting much clearer wort into the FV, the main reason I think is that you recirculate the wort during the mash, so the grains act as something of a natural filter, also using the immersion chiller and setting up a whirlpool when chilling seems to help somewhat, although I'm still experimenting with the best way to do that.

Ultimately I wouldn't worry too much, it'll settle out in the fermenter, and I've read it doesn't impact the beer much if at all: http://brulosophy.com/2014/06/02/the-great-trub-exbeeriment-results-are-in/
 
I don't think I have ever seen so much Brulosophy endorsements than on this forum, he has no science backing up his experiments, just people who can't tell Stork from butter, it is all anecdotal evidence.

Fix in “Principals of Brewing Science (2nd Edition)”:

“The group of interest here is the long-chain, unsaturated fatty acids that are derived from malt. They are typically found in wort trub (i.e., particles suspended in the wort), which can consist of as much as 50% lipids (Meilgaard, 1977). Cloudy wort can contain anywhere from 5 to 40 times the unsaturated fatty-acid content of clear wort, an important fact because unsaturated fatty acids can have a significant negative effect even at low concentrations. On the positive side, fatty acids contribute to yeast viability via a number of mechanisms (see chapter 3), and they also inhibit the formation of some less pleasant acetate esters during fermentation (see chapter 3). On the negative side, they work against beer foam stability, as any fatty material does. Even more significantly, they play an important role in beer staling (see chapter 4). Thus, some investigations have reported that wort clarity (via trub removal) is essential (Zangrando, 1979), whereas other investigators have found some carryover of unsaturated fatty acids in the trub to be beneficial (Hough et al., 1981). In spite of these advantages, brewers still prefer clarified worts with minimum trub carryover, if for no other reason than the negative role wort-derived fatty acids play in beer staling. Another class of beer-staling constituents consists of fatty acids. In beer, fatty acids come from two sources, namely, unsaturated fatty acids from wort trub and saturated ones from yeast metabolism. As discussed in chapter 3, the saturated fatty acids can react with alcohols to form esters. The unsaturated fatty acids, on the other hand, are major players in beer staling. They tend to be fairly resistant to oxidation and spill over into the finished beer where they tend to produce “fatty or goaty notes.””

Kunze in “Technology of Brewing and Malting (5th Edition)”:

During malting the lipids are partly broken down and this breakdown is continued during mashing. This breakdown will later be of great interest to us. A large part of the lipids is later precipitated with the trub. Cloudy lautering and poor trub excretion lead to large amounts of free fatty acids in the wort, which the yeast cells require to produce new cell substances, but which can also contribute to a reduction in flavour stability.

Removal of the coarse break (coarse trub). The break from the cast wort is now called coarse break, as well as boiled or hot break. It consists of large particles, 30 – 80 μm in size, which are slightly heavier than the wort and in general settle down well to form a compact mass if they are given sufficient time. The coarse break must be removed since it is not only of no value in further beer production,but also actually detrimental to quality:
• Hinders wort clarification

• Increases the amount of break-rich sediment and thereby increases the loss

• Makes beer filtration more difficult if it is not removed at the right time.

Whirlpool – Whirlpools have been installed for break removal in increasing numbers since about 1960. It is the most elegant method for hot break removal and is the least costly alternative of all trub removal methods.

Cold break – At about 60 °C the previously clear wort will start to become turbid. This turbidity is due to small particles about 0.5 μm in diameter. This is therefore called fine, cool or cold break (cold trub). Because of its small size, cold break settles only with great difficulty…It has the property of adhering to other particles, e.g. yeast cells or air bubbles. When it adheres to yeast cells it decreases the yeast contact surface and thereby reduces the fermentation rate. This is referred to as “coating” the yeast. Cold break consists of protein-polyphenol compounds which precipitate to a greater extent in relatively cold media and partially dissolve again on warming. This means that wort on cooling to 5 °C still contains 14% of the total cold break in dissolved form. A residual amount of cold break at discharge of 120-160 mg/I dry matter is desirable [199]. A reduction of the cold break content to approximately this value can result in:

• A more rounded beer flavor, particularly in the bitterness

• An improvement of the beer foam (as a result of the precipitation of fatty acids),

• An improvement of the flavour stability

• A more intensive fermentation.

To remove the cold break the following methods can be used (Sect. 3.9.4):
• Filtration (using Perlite)

• Flotation,

• Sedimentation or

• Separation.
The cold break is only formed later after the coarse break has already been removed. Separate equipment is therefore required for the removal of coarse and cold break. Nowadays the cold break is not usually removed. A prerequisite for this, however, is an optimal hot break removal and fermentative yeast (assimilation yeast). With a powerful course of fermentation, a distinctive flavour, good flavour stability and good foam stability can be expected.




    • Achieve as clear of a mash wort as we can.
    • Get a nice good hot break.
    • Utilize a whirlpool when chilling to concentrate and remove hot break.
    • Chill fast to precipitate cold break, allow for it to form and then remove it.
    • Try and get clear beer into the fermenter
    • 002.JPG
    • It isn't hard, leave the trub where it belongs in the kettle.


 
I don't think I have ever seen so much Brulosophy endorsements than on this forum, he has no science backing up his experiments, just people who can't tell Stork from butter, it is all anecdotal evidence.

Fix in “Principals of Brewing Science (2nd Edition)”:

“The group of interest here is the long-chain, unsaturated fatty acids that are derived from malt. They are typically found in wort trub (i.e., particles suspended in the wort), which can consist of as much as 50% lipids (Meilgaard, 1977). Cloudy wort can contain anywhere from 5 to 40 times the unsaturated fatty-acid content of clear wort, an important fact because unsaturated fatty acids can have a significant negative effect even at low concentrations. On the positive side, fatty acids contribute to yeast viability via a number of mechanisms (see chapter 3), and they also inhibit the formation of some less pleasant acetate esters during fermentation (see chapter 3). On the negative side, they work against beer foam stability, as any fatty material does. Even more significantly, they play an important role in beer staling (see chapter 4). Thus, some investigations have reported that wort clarity (via trub removal) is essential (Zangrando, 1979), whereas other investigators have found some carryover of unsaturated fatty acids in the trub to be beneficial (Hough et al., 1981). In spite of these advantages, brewers still prefer clarified worts with minimum trub carryover, if for no other reason than the negative role wort-derived fatty acids play in beer staling. Another class of beer-staling constituents consists of fatty acids. In beer, fatty acids come from two sources, namely, unsaturated fatty acids from wort trub and saturated ones from yeast metabolism. As discussed in chapter 3, the saturated fatty acids can react with alcohols to form esters. The unsaturated fatty acids, on the other hand, are major players in beer staling. They tend to be fairly resistant to oxidation and spill over into the finished beer where they tend to produce “fatty or goaty notes.””

Kunze in “Technology of Brewing and Malting (5th Edition)”:

During malting the lipids are partly broken down and this breakdown is continued during mashing. This breakdown will later be of great interest to us. A large part of the lipids is later precipitated with the trub. Cloudy lautering and poor trub excretion lead to large amounts of free fatty acids in the wort, which the yeast cells require to produce new cell substances, but which can also contribute to a reduction in flavour stability.

Removal of the coarse break (coarse trub). The break from the cast wort is now called coarse break, as well as boiled or hot break. It consists of large particles, 30 – 80 μm in size, which are slightly heavier than the wort and in general settle down well to form a compact mass if they are given sufficient time. The coarse break must be removed since it is not only of no value in further beer production,but also actually detrimental to quality:
• Hinders wort clarification

• Increases the amount of break-rich sediment and thereby increases the loss

• Makes beer filtration more difficult if it is not removed at the right time.

Whirlpool – Whirlpools have been installed for break removal in increasing numbers since about 1960. It is the most elegant method for hot break removal and is the least costly alternative of all trub removal methods.

Cold break – At about 60 °C the previously clear wort will start to become turbid. This turbidity is due to small particles about 0.5 μm in diameter. This is therefore called fine, cool or cold break (cold trub). Because of its small size, cold break settles only with great difficulty…It has the property of adhering to other particles, e.g. yeast cells or air bubbles. When it adheres to yeast cells it decreases the yeast contact surface and thereby reduces the fermentation rate. This is referred to as “coating” the yeast. Cold break consists of protein-polyphenol compounds which precipitate to a greater extent in relatively cold media and partially dissolve again on warming. This means that wort on cooling to 5 °C still contains 14% of the total cold break in dissolved form. A residual amount of cold break at discharge of 120-160 mg/I dry matter is desirable [199]. A reduction of the cold break content to approximately this value can result in:

• A more rounded beer flavor, particularly in the bitterness

• An improvement of the beer foam (as a result of the precipitation of fatty acids),

• An improvement of the flavour stability

• A more intensive fermentation.

To remove the cold break the following methods can be used (Sect. 3.9.4):
• Filtration (using Perlite)

• Flotation,

• Sedimentation or

• Separation.
The cold break is only formed later after the coarse break has already been removed. Separate equipment is therefore required for the removal of coarse and cold break. Nowadays the cold break is not usually removed. A prerequisite for this, however, is an optimal hot break removal and fermentative yeast (assimilation yeast). With a powerful course of fermentation, a distinctive flavour, good flavour stability and good foam stability can be expected.




    • Achieve as clear of a mash wort as we can.
    • Get a nice good hot break.
    • Utilize a whirlpool when chilling to concentrate and remove hot break.
    • Chill fast to precipitate cold break, allow for it to form and then remove it.
    • Try and get clear beer into the fermenter
    • It isn't hard, leave the trub where it belongs in the kettle.


Of course taste testing is important. Unless you read your beers.
 
I don't think I have ever seen so much Brulosophy endorsements than on this forum, he has no science backing up his experiments, just people who can't tell Stork from butter, it is all anecdotal evidence.

Meh, split batches followed by pseudo blind tasting with a group of experienced tasters seems like a reasonable qualitative approach to homebrew research to me.

The article you reference also has a bunch of assertions with little actual science - nearly 40 years ago two studies with unspecified methods reached conflicting conclusions, then a bunch of unqualified assertions about fatty acids without science or qualitative testing to validate them
Anyway, my point was, for a novice homebrewer a bit of trub in the FV is probably no big deal, let it settle out, relax and enjoy the beer at the end. :cheers3:
 
Yes ignore the likes of Briggs, Kunze, Boulton and Bamforth what do they know.

It's not about what they know. They are all experts in their field. It's how relevant it is on a homebrew scale and how much impact the variables have in real-world tasting as opposed to on a molecular level that is only measurable in a lab.
 
It's not about what they know. They are all experts in their field. It's how relevant it is on a homebrew scale and how much impact the variables have in real-world tasting as opposed to on a molecular level that is only measurable in a lab.
Its about what the original poster wants to know. He may also be someone who when he does something he wants to do it right.
 
Thanks for the responses fellas.

I've gone with an ultra low tech set up - BIAB and single vessel mash, boil & ferment. So no means of removing the trub at the various stages, although I appreciate that doing so may ultimately lead to a better outcome in terms of clarity etc.

Hopefully a decent ferment will help clear the beer, as I've used a yeast with high flocculation - maybe the krausen falling at the end of the ferment will help ensure the trub settles down nicely?

Just wanted to understand if a high level of sediment pre-fermentation was normal, as it was a different experience from my first boil - thanks for clearing that up. athumb..
 
Hi richhall,
I am almost the same as you - biab single vessel, with the exception i dump the boiled wort into a separate FV.
Dont sweat it, it will brew and it will (i am sure) be delicious.t
I do use half a protofloc tab in the last 10 minutes of the boil and let the wort sit for 30 minutes after its turned off. This allows a lot of the chunks to fall and settle before i pour it in to the FV. But even still i always end up with approximately 1" of trub at the bottom after its finished fermenting.

And i also find once the krausen drops and 5 days after finishing the ferment, its really clear and ready to bottle straight from the vessel. i rarely ever transfer to a secondary and then bottle. just dont see the point when the beer is so clear in the primary. Any haze that is in the beer after bottling always drops with the remaining yeast during the carbonation phase and sticks like sh.t to a shovel on the bottom of the bottle. Happy days.

hope its a blinder mate.
 
Hi Nicks90

I'll see how this one goes, as I was going to use the same process as you and have a separate FV ready to use...but then I stumbled across some stuff online talking about a complete single vessel process and thought (in my lazy way!) that I'd give that a go first.

If it doesn't pan out too well, then next time I'll mash and boil then transfer to a seperate FV.

If I go down that route and use a boil addition to help clear the wort, is there much difference between the various ones out there?

Cheers
Rich.
 
@RichHall
The bottom line is that the solids will eventually pack down as trub with the spent yeast and due to particle size should settle quicker than the yeast. As @Nicks90 says you could always rack off for a few days before packaging to help get clearer beer but that's really down to you.
I do partial mashes and for my 11 litre pot now use a 75p Wilko plastic mixing bowl drilled with lots of large holes to allow my mashing bag to drain and then recirculate the first mash liquor back through the grain in the bag and this seems to have cut down on the solids carried forward considerably.
 
Last edited:
Interesting...I do 3 vessel AG...after cooling I've started leaving my kettle to settle for a while...half hour? while I clean the chiller,tip the sanitiser from the fv and leave it to drain and generally tidy up. The trub settles out in the kettle....I fit the pipe and gently crack the tap...only enough to start the flow into the fv...this is a small trickle to start...I find this draws a huge "fur" of trub over the bazooka, partially blocking it. I then crack the tap just enough to gently increase the flow...this punches a couple of holes in the trub on the filter...I then leave it to drain into the fv with the pipe just held in the lid providing a drop so it aerates the wort. I never get the ball valve more than half open. I watch the wort drain...keeping an eye as the kettle empties ...nearly all the trub settles out below the tap,very little is transferred to the fv...watch it until it starts to pull the trub then stop.
The result...minimal trub transfer...I never have a fermentation problem ..quite the opposite. Transfer to bottling bucket it easy and my beers up to now ,drop clear within a couple of weeks of bottling.
 
@RichHall As @Nicks90 and others have said, my experience is similar and I normally end up with ~1" trub at the bottom of the FV.

It usually takes a couple of days to settle out and then compact down fully.

When I syphon to the bottling bucket I just have to be careful not to stick up to much of this sludge.

Don't worry, I'm sure your new will be a cracker - but it does take a few brews under your belt to dial in your process and know what is normal for you and your gear. Good luck athumb..
 
Hey folks

Week in the FV now, and measuring 1.011 - so getting pretty close to being finished.

Noticed from the measuring sample that it's got loads of crud in suspension, and the yeast is still showing a layer of foam on top (was supposed to be highly floculant).

Is there anything I need to do to help it settle down and clear? I'm guessing bringing the temperature down might help, but I don't have a fridge (just yet!) so will letting it continue sitting at fermentation temperature be enough to allow it to clear?

Cheers
 
Week in the FV now, and measuring 1.011 - so getting pretty close to being finished.
You said it yourself , it's 'pretty close to being finished' which means it's not actually finished and there is still some activity and the yeast will still be in suspension with the odd bubble rising from the bottom to lift yet more yeast into the beer. My advice is to put the lid back on and forget all about it for another week and when you do return it should be almost clear especially if the yeast is a flocculant type. Time, gravity and importantly patience will do wonders to clear your beer.
 
Three things:
1. What yeast did you use?
2. Did you dry hop?
3. I'd leave it at least another week before bottling/packaging, maybe even 2 weeks more.

I have no temp control - the only time I've cold crashed was in the shed in winter!

Most of the time my beers end up clear enough, but they all taste good which is what really matters.

Clarity can vary depending on a number of factors, such as the above, plus loads more. I really wouldn't sweat it.

Even hazy beers will generally clear in most cases given enough time in the bottle - though I'm taking a few months rather than weeks.

But in this instant world we live in, this homebrew malarky is really an exercise in patience. So just sit tight, it'll more then likely be fine in the end athumb..
 
Great, cheers guys - finding the patience part a bit tricky on the first brew! Will give it another week or two and try to forget about it for now.

@matt76 - nbs west coast style ale yeast and no dry hopping

Having now (almost) gone through the first fermentation, I can see the benefit of using multiple vessels, rather than my single pot approach - as a load of the sediment from the mash and/or boil could have already been disposed of.

We'll see how this one goes, if it takes a particularly long time to clear down, then I might ditch my one pot approach - let's give it a few weeks and find out!
 
I've used the NBS West coast yeast a couple of times and it dropped fairly clear after about 2 weeks, so as already said I'd leave it alone for another week or so athumb..
 
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