Zephyr259
Landlord.
Yikes! That's mental bicarbonate, I'm totally spoiled with my "almost as soft as Pilsen" north eastern water.
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BeerCat
Landlord.
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Nice looking lagers! i really enjoyed the Mexican lager i made using corn. Will have to experiment with that yeast a bit more. I am still using the same MJ Bohemian i bought last winter.
Are you still brewing lagers? It looked like you'd switched over to Kveik beers of late.
I switched off the stirplate tonight as the fermentation had clearly finished after 48 hours. The krausen was gone and it was just swirling around flecks of yeast that were trying to flocculate. Looks like I grew a lot of yeast and managed to save back 500ml for next time:
The remaining 2 litres is in the fridge cold-crashing until pitching time. I think I'll ferment this one at 12C which is in the lower-middle of the 11-14C range recommended by Imperial.
The remaining 2 litres is in the fridge cold-crashing until pitching time. I think I'll ferment this one at 12C which is in the lower-middle of the 11-14C range recommended by Imperial.
BeerCat
Landlord.
- Joined
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Still brewing lagers, i have 5 on the go at the moment. Well you don't want to run out do you. Somewhat gone off hoppy beers lately so been sticking to stouts and lagers.
Today is the Phoney Peroni brewday. The recipe was unchanged from this post. I got started nice and early at half six and crushed the grain (not including the flaked & torrified maze).
I mashed low at about 65C in an attempt to keep the FG low and the body light. After 60 minutes and a good stir every now and then I did an iodine test.
It seemed that conversion was complete so I went ahead and did a dunk sparge for 10 minutes before adding the sparge liquor back to the boiler and taking pre-boil volume and gravity measurements. Uh oh, I was 3 points short on the expected gravity; 1.037 instead of 1.040.
I kind of expected this after reading other people's experience with large amounts of cereals in the grist so I decided to top up with some dextrose (corn sugar), which if you think about it is very appropriate! I needed 3 points and dextrose yields 46 points per pound per US gallon so I did the maths then the metric conversion and came up with an addition of about 230g. This went in to the boil. I know I gain +3 points in the boil so my expected OG will be 1.043.
All done and I transferred 24.5 litres to the fermenter. A little more than expected, probably down to the flaked maize not having as much absorption as the grain. Ground water is cold this time of year so I was able to get it down to 20.0C with the immersion chiller before putting it in the brew fridge to get it down to pitching temperature.
Hmm, I need a new trial jar. That plastic one's beginning to look a bit manky. OG was 1.043, exactly as planned after the remedial action with the dextrose and the wort is very pale. The dextrose will also serve to lighten the body which I'm happy with because Peroni itself is very dry and crisp.
The fermentation range for Imperial L28 Urkel is 11-14C. I'm planning to target 12C. If I'm lucky the brew fridge should get it down to target by tomorrow morning.
I mashed low at about 65C in an attempt to keep the FG low and the body light. After 60 minutes and a good stir every now and then I did an iodine test.
It seemed that conversion was complete so I went ahead and did a dunk sparge for 10 minutes before adding the sparge liquor back to the boiler and taking pre-boil volume and gravity measurements. Uh oh, I was 3 points short on the expected gravity; 1.037 instead of 1.040.
I kind of expected this after reading other people's experience with large amounts of cereals in the grist so I decided to top up with some dextrose (corn sugar), which if you think about it is very appropriate! I needed 3 points and dextrose yields 46 points per pound per US gallon so I did the maths then the metric conversion and came up with an addition of about 230g. This went in to the boil. I know I gain +3 points in the boil so my expected OG will be 1.043.
All done and I transferred 24.5 litres to the fermenter. A little more than expected, probably down to the flaked maize not having as much absorption as the grain. Ground water is cold this time of year so I was able to get it down to 20.0C with the immersion chiller before putting it in the brew fridge to get it down to pitching temperature.
Hmm, I need a new trial jar. That plastic one's beginning to look a bit manky. OG was 1.043, exactly as planned after the remedial action with the dextrose and the wort is very pale. The dextrose will also serve to lighten the body which I'm happy with because Peroni itself is very dry and crisp.
The fermentation range for Imperial L28 Urkel is 11-14C. I'm planning to target 12C. If I'm lucky the brew fridge should get it down to target by tomorrow morning.
The Phoney Peroni fermentation has started well. The wort got down to 12C by Monday morning so I was able to pitch the decanted 2 litre starter of Imperial L28. 24 hours later there was slow bubbling in the blowoff jar and tonight, 36 hours later, it's going at what passes for the clappers in a lager fermentation. I'll keep an eye on the progress and am be expecting to start raising the temperature towards the end of the week. Time in the fermenter will be 3 weeks for this one.
An Ankoù
Landlord.
A fascinating thread. Never thought of making Peroni, but I wonder if Ashbeck water is soft enough. Never had access or even wanted access to RO water, but I've brewed some great Pilsners from rainwater with a bit of acidulated malt in the grist to lower the pH.
Dying to hear how this one turns out, Foxbat. Purely in the interest of science as I had a pint of draught Peroni and didn't like it much. On the other hand, I did like Birra Moretti, but a quick googling tells me it's sold out to Heineken., I wonder if anyone's tried copying the original.
There seems to be no shortage of rainwater these days, either here in sunny Brittany or in dear old Blighty.
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Ashbeck is the softest water we can buy here and thankfully also a supermarket brand and not a premium label that has advertising campaigns to pay for. According to Brunwater the water in Pilsen has Ca/Mg/Na/SO4/Cl/CaCO3 values of 7/2/2/8/6/16. Ashbeck is 10/2.5/9/10/12/25 so they're both comparable. I add a little CaCl to my lager water to bring up the calcium and chloride levels but nothing else. It works well.
I'm also a fan of Birra Moretti as well as Nastro Azzuro. There's nothing that hits the spot as much as a good dose of Saaz in a chilled beer on a hot sunny day.
Yeah, rain; bored of that now. Please can we have some sun?
An Ankoù
Landlord.
Spot on.
I had a couple of pints of my Outback Lager last night. It's crisp, clear and tastes of Galaxy and Motueka. Exactly as intended then. Photo coming soon. The thing is I'm not quite sure in my head that a lager should taste this way. It goes against expectations. I can't get it out of my mind that it's just like I'd expect a chilled APA to taste. Nothing wrong with that of course; I've had and enjoyed chilled Sierra Nevada Pale Ale more than a few times and it really is an accomplished beer. Perhaps I just need to re-align my expectations after brewing so many lagers with Saaz and Tettnang, or maybe tone down the powerful citrus hops to more match the delicate balance found in lagers?
I also tried a bottle of my Kristall Pilsner - I always have a few bottles in addition to the corny keg that gets filled first. Now this is a tried and trusted recipe and the keg version was perfect. Crisp and clear with fresh noble flavours from start to the tap-sputtering moment of disappointment. All good. Not so sure about the bottles. Clear, yes. Crisp, not so much and the delicate spiciness of Tettnang is more muted. Oxidation perhaps? It may be that lagers with their delicate balance of hop and malt suffer from bottle conditioning in the same way that NEIPAs do.
I also tried a bottle of my Kristall Pilsner - I always have a few bottles in addition to the corny keg that gets filled first. Now this is a tried and trusted recipe and the keg version was perfect. Crisp and clear with fresh noble flavours from start to the tap-sputtering moment of disappointment. All good. Not so sure about the bottles. Clear, yes. Crisp, not so much and the delicate spiciness of Tettnang is more muted. Oxidation perhaps? It may be that lagers with their delicate balance of hop and malt suffer from bottle conditioning in the same way that NEIPAs do.
It always puzzles me when I read about Czech Pils, for instance, being hoppy. I suspect it is, is just that noble hops are much more subtle than modern "hoppy" American hops.
Maybe there is a degree of recalibrating your preconceptions required? I suppose you could go easier on the hoppy hops, but then would you get the same (or the required) bitterness? I dunno...
(FWIW I used Crystal hops in my pseudo Helles which was great - but in fairness, crystal isn't really an in your face hoppy hop)
It's the less hoppy lagers I find more challenging, Märzen, Helles, Vienna Lager etc... I guess in the UK we're just not really accustomed to these less bitter/less hoppy lagers...
By the way, I bottle all my beers - it may have taken time but eventually they've all come good in the end. So I don't think there's anything per se wrong with bottling lagers - however, it may well just be one of those styles (ha ha - like there's only one lager style!) that is somehow mystically better suited to kegs. Who knows...
Maybe there is a degree of recalibrating your preconceptions required? I suppose you could go easier on the hoppy hops, but then would you get the same (or the required) bitterness? I dunno...
(FWIW I used Crystal hops in my pseudo Helles which was great - but in fairness, crystal isn't really an in your face hoppy hop)
It's the less hoppy lagers I find more challenging, Märzen, Helles, Vienna Lager etc... I guess in the UK we're just not really accustomed to these less bitter/less hoppy lagers...
By the way, I bottle all my beers - it may have taken time but eventually they've all come good in the end. So I don't think there's anything per se wrong with bottling lagers - however, it may well just be one of those styles (ha ha - like there's only one lager style!) that is somehow mystically better suited to kegs. Who knows...
An Ankoù
Landlord.
I've just finished the last three bottles of my Warsteiner clone, bottled in Jan 2019. They tended to fob a bit, but just cracked open the cap until that had settled down and they were certainly at their best after a year.
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You're probably right regarding expectations. I think I've become so used to associating the citrus hop flavours with APAs that tasting them in a lager just takes some getting used to. Having had another pair of pints tonight I can say this experimental lager has come out really well and I would do it again.
I kegged and bottled this one on the 4th Jan so near enough 2 months. From what the others are saying here that may not be enough for bottles although I wouldn't expect the lack of vibrant, fresh hop flavour to come back over time.
Zephyr259
Landlord.
It's in interesting point there, I'm guessing your lager and pale ale grain bills aren't miles apart and both pale ale and lager yeasts would be on the clean side so using the same hops on each would give a similar result. The fact that one was fermented cold and lagered to some degree may not be overly relevant in the grand scheme and it's just two ways of making a hoppy beer.
What is it people are tasting which makes them think lager specifically? Clean malt with noble hops and a touch of sulfur?
Hope that makes sense.
An Ankoù
Landlord.
It's a very interesting question. There is something different about a lager and I reckon you could use the same grain bill and hop schedule to make two entirely different beers- up to a point. For me a lager tastes crisp and "clean" so no crystal malts apart form carapils and a well attenuated beer served cold and, yes, fizzy. I think the high carbonation adds something to the mouthfeel and the perceived acidity of the drink. Let a lager warm up and lose it's bubbles and it's undrinkable, while a warmish, low carbonated ale is more palatable. All that said, my favourite style is Czech lagers, especially Urquell, which has a fairly high FG, a residual maltiness and a bitterness similar to many ale profiles. I don't mind a dark lager, either, but it's not the same drink at all.
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Tonight I remembered to take a photo of my Outback Lager. This has been in the keg for 6 weeks now:
As previously noted it's looking great and tastes like it should but I still think the citrus flavours of Galaxy and Motueka don't quite belong in a cold lager, perhaps because citrus flavours are acidic and lagers are cold and crisp so you're lacking balance in the form of malty sweetness.
As previously noted it's looking great and tastes like it should but I still think the citrus flavours of Galaxy and Motueka don't quite belong in a cold lager, perhaps because citrus flavours are acidic and lagers are cold and crisp so you're lacking balance in the form of malty sweetness.
An Ankoù
Landlord.
It looks a lovely pint, even so. :hat:Tonight I remembered to take a photo of my Outback Lager. This has been in the keg for 6 weeks now:
As previously noted it's looking great and tastes like it should but I still think the citrus flavours of Galaxy and Motueka don't quite belong in a cold lager, perhaps because citrus flavours are acidic and lagers are cold and crisp so you're lacking balance in the form of malty sweetness.
