100ltr upgrade - help me design :)

[Waylander87]

Morning all,

So I've caught the brewing bug in a big way. I did a few kits and quickly moved to an all grain setup. It's been great and given me some good beers and experience. But there are a LOT of losses in the system (7.5ltrs of deadspace in the HLT - which also doubles as the boiler, and 2.5 in the mash tun) - when I'm brewing 23ltr batches and getting over 1/3rd of losses it makes me sad.

So im beginning the process of slowly upgrading to a 100ltr setup and converting the garage to be safer (no extension leads running alongside hosepipes!!). Plan is to go all electric, get a raspberry pi/aduino temp control etc. Maybe even get it to email me when it's at temp. :geek: Everything on the same level and liquid moved by pumps. All wired into a control box out of the way. Proper job.
The idea with 100ltrs is that its future proof. In my mind anything larger is probably a full microbrewery and might need its own building!

I'll be brewing 23ltr batches still in the short term, but just on bigger kit.

As part of my scheme I noticed someone selling a 100ltr pot with tap and sight tube on ebay last night for £90. Similar ones were going for far more than that so I snapped it up.

But now I'll need to fit a kettle element. Question is, how powerful a kettle element should I be looking at? 2.5KW? 3KW? Less? More?

In two minds whether to use the 100ltr pot as the HLT or the boiler; would this make a difference to the element choice or would you suggest the same element for both pots?

As the tap is mounted on the side so there'll be some deadspace (though I imagine not as much as current setup!), so I could maybe use it as the HLT where the deadspace is just water, and then get a boiler down the line with a bottom drain? Or do you reckon a bottom draining boiler is more effort than its worth?

Mash-tun will eventually be a thermo pot when I have the funds. Given that i have a 100ltr boiler/HLT I was looking at a 70ltr mash-tun.
But as short term ill be doing ~23ltr batches still, am i going to suffer temperature losses in the mash-tun given that there will likely be a lot of air space above the grain? Is there anything i can do to limit this, such as putting an insulated and sterilised insert into the mash-tun (sit it on top of the mash or near to it) to limit the heat loss?

So i guess to sumarise my ramblings:
1) How big of a kettle element would you recommend for 100ltr HLT/Boiler?
2) Would you suggest the same size element for the HLT and the Boiler, or does one need more/less power than the other?
3) Would a boiler with a bottom drain be better than a side drain or is that overkill and faff for the sake of a few ltrs deadspace?
4) Is a 70ltr thermo-pot about right for a mash-tun or is that going to mean too much "air" in the mash-tun and heat losses as a reault?
5) Is there anything i could do to a larger mash-tun to reduce this air pocket?

Thanks in advance
Advise me oh wise ones!

Waylander

 

[markmark]

1. Personally at that size, I would probably go for a gas burner. I have an 80 litre thermopot boiler, 1 element (3kw IIRC)....would like to be able to get to the boil a bit quicker. I usually have 53 litres going in there for 40 litre brewlength.
2. HLT doesn't need to be quite so big imo. 1 element would be fine.
3. Of course the bottom drain would be better in the boiler (I have mine like this), but you could also run a length of pipe or your hop strainer from the tap downward to the bottom of the boiler to create a syphon effect and minimise losses.
4. Doesn't really matter IMO. bigger tun = stronger beer or more of it. For smaller mashes, cut a piece of Kingspan to size to sit on top of the mash once you have doughed in.
5. see #4

ATB

 

[Waylander87]

Thanks for that :)

I was originally thinking gas. Reasons I've moved away from that idea are:
-Ventilation concerns. I know some people say its fine, and I can open the garage door I guess, but still something I can do without worrying about.
-I understand electric more than gas
-Electric gives me more control through thermostats, pumps etc. Means I can get a brew on and leave it with less fear of fire, knowing it'll get to the temp I set and stop.
-the Mrs is into buying in bulk and offers. The garage doubles up as a Tesco express! So with all that stuff knocking about I was worried about something combusting.

Could I use 2 elements in the boiler for quicker boil speed? Or is that not going to make enough of a difference?

Hop strainer/pipe for syphon effect in the boiler is a good option I guess. But since this is going to be my final setup (unless I open a micro!) I may as well do it properly. Bottom drain it is :)

And finally the king span idea is just the thing I was thinking of. Maybe I'm not as mad as I thought!

 

[prolix]

I have 70L thermopot brewery so can offer some advice if only 70% worth

Morning all,


So i guess to sumarise my ramblings:
1) How big of a kettle element would you recommend for 100ltr HLT/Boiler?

I use two 2.4 kw elements each from a different plug (re wired garage to take the load) My HLT has a 3kw element, when I used it as a boiler it never got a really good rolling boil.

2) Would you suggest the same size element for the HLT and the Boiler, or does one need more/less power than the other?

HLT does not need to be so fierce that's why it is 3kw, takes about

0.07 x litres x temp change / kw of heater

60 litres from 15 to 75 so 60c with 3kw heater

0.07 x 60 x 60 / 3 = 84 mins

3) Would a boiler with a bottom drain be better than a side drain or is that overkill and faff for the sake of a few ltrs deadspace?

I have side tap and use a downward pointing suction tube in the mash tun and two 45 degree bends to get my hop strainer to the bottom so limiting dead space

4) Is a 70ltr thermo-pot about right for a mash-tun or is that going to mean too much "air" in the mash-tun and heat losses as a reault?

heat loss in a thermopot? I have a 40 litre pot as mash tun and sometimes struggle to get big beers, 70 should be plenty big enough unless you are a barley wine fan

5) Is there anything i could do to a larger mash-tun to reduce this air pocket?

that much water and grain is not going to be effected by a little airpocket, mine is 40 litres and even with it 2/3 full so 1/3 air pocket the most heat I have lost is about 1c in 90 mins. Thermpots do not lose heat, that much grist and liquor will ignore the air pocket and if you do find it an issue later on it is a great excuse to build a HERMs


Thanks in advance
Advise me oh wise ones!

Waylander

I hope that is ok, not being able to edit posts after I have written them makes it very difficult to write them after plethoric quality control :


I take it back I can edit Yeah:thumb:

 

[Waylander87]

What an epic response! :clap:

Thanks for that, really informative. Glad to hear i don't need to worry about heat loss in my eventual thermopot - had a feeling it would be ok but nice to get confirmation.

Think im going to make this 100ltr pot into a boiler, as the current setup I have will work as a HLT, but as a boiler it's 7.5ltr deadspace kills me. I'll be taking your advice and fitting two elements. I have an electrician coming to fit a dedicated brewing RCD to the garage fuse box to take the loads.

How do you have those two elements fitted? And what type are they? (the type that come into the side of the pot or they type that sit under?)
Do you have a picture? Trying to ensure that cables etc are all nicely smuggled away and waterproof, as my current setup (old kit bought from someone) could well find its way into an electricians handbook of what NOT to do.

And as for deadspace, I'll figure something out with regards to syphon effect pipes under a filter.

Thanks again!!