Irishwizard
Regular.
Rayner - the politician who said 2 years ago, we need a kinder politics
Angela Rayner on the Tories
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Brewnaldo
Landlord.
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Perhaps she meant things like not cutting Universal Credit? Tangible things that matter to people health/wealth/happiness.....
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If you can't give an alternative then you're just wasting our time - and if you don't know most of the Shadow Cabinet then you don't know if he's the best of a bad bunch, every single one of them could be worse than Starmer.
Obviously he's not the most charismatic of leaders, but it's going to be hard for anybody to outdo Johnson on that front, so the appeal has to be on a different level, more the quiet competence thing. The two things that really matter to voters are economic competence and whether they can trust the leader - and he doesn't have to be perfect, he just has to be better than Johnson on those two aspects. Which should be doable.
Again it comes back to alternatives - what exactly is a Leader of the Opposition to do when nobody is listening to him thanks to a once-in-a-century pandemic? He could have run down Oxford St naked and nobody would have noticed. Same with the other big issue of the age, Brexit - I'm not sure there's too much he can say that is useful to the Labour cause, just let the chickens released in 2016-20 come home to roost between now and the next election. It's daft to give hostages to fortune by getting too specific about policies this far ahead of any election. People aren't daft, they already know that Brexit is not going well - eg see this polling. So what do you think Starmer should have done?
Cheshire Cat
Landlord.
Keir should say if Labour wins the next election then he would hold another referendum to rejoin the EU. If Scotland can have another referendum then why not the whole UK.
An Ankoù
Landlord.
It's a great idea CC, but it takes two to tango and it's by no means certain that the EU would have us back even with an overwhelming vote to return. On the other hand, there's still a lot of love for the Brits among the rank and file folk and it's mainly the politicians we've pissled off. There's also an amazing ignorance of how hard the UK is being hit by Brexit. Libération had a go at explaining the situation and I think they've done a pretty good job.
https://www.liberation.fr/internati...ig-berne-20210923_GOAIXCIH3VHC7ACLFARHNMHDYQ/
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It's bad politics, the whole Brexit thing is just too sensitive right now to do something as dramatic as a new referendum and it will just distract from anything else they have to say. Whatever they promise three years before an election is a hostage to fortune, just wait and see where we are in 2024. For now they just need to reassure people that they will reverse some of the daft things like rejoining the Erasmus scheme which Nandy announced today.
Cheshire Cat
Landlord.
Student exchange why's that daft?
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I maybe wasn't clear - I meant that it's daft to ditch Erasmus (which is what has happened under Johnson's nutjob-extreme version of Brexit), and sensible to rejoin it. Nandy announced today that it was now Labour policy to rejoin Erasmus.
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Shirley Bassett
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I’d like to add fuel to this debate, but having been to 5 petrol stations, I still don’t have any.
How can anyone know which one of those would be the best leader all i know is "FOR ME" Starmer is not the man for the job the video backs up my feelings on the subject.
Seems i am not alone -
Labour conference: Frontbencher Andy McDonald quits in protest at Sir Keir Starmer
Shadow cabinet member Andy McDonald has quit Labour's frontbench with a scathing attack on Sir Keir Starmer.
In his resignation letter - published in the middle of Labour's party conference in Brighton - the MP said his party leader had made Labour "more divided than ever".
Mr McDonald also accused him of not honouring his pledges to members.
Sir Keir thanked the former minister for his service but said his focus was on "winning the next general election".
Mr McDonald previously served as shadow transport secretary on Jeremy Corbyn's frontbench - but he became one of the few members to survive the handover of power to Sir Keir, and stayed in the top team as shadow secretary for employment rights and protections.
In recent months, his focus had been on creating Labour's new programme of employment rights, which was unveiled at the conference on Saturday by deputy leader Angela Rayner.
'Closing the door'
But earlier this week, former shadow chancellor John McDonnell said the work had been overshadowed by Sir Keir's controversial party rule changes.
Mr McDonald said he accepted the job "because I wanted to fight for the working people of this country", but, he wrote: "It has become clear to me that I cannot do this as a member of the shadow cabinet."
Sources close to Sir Keir told the BBC they were not unhappy at the departure, insisting this week was "all about change and closing the door on the Corbyn era".
Labour MP Barry Gardiner - who served alongside Mr McDonald in Mr Corbyn's cabinet - told the BBC he was "extremely shocked" to hear of the resignation, saying he had been "a very powerful voice for workers in the country".
But the founder of left wing Labour activist group Momentum, Jon Lansman, joined Mr McDonald's criticism of Sir Keir, telling BBC News: "He promised to unite the party and actually, unfortunately, he's driving wedges within the party."
Shadow work and pensions secretary Jonathan Reynolds said Mr McDonald "is a friend of mine" and he was "sad to see him go".
But he disagreed with the remarks about division in the party, adding: "We have seen this conference, frankly, Labour facing towards the general election in a way that is not just ambitious in terms of the pledges… but we have also tried to do that in a gain that gains credibility that is required to win power".
As news of the resignation broke in the conference hall, one delegate shouted, "Andy McDonald, solidarity!" to loud cheers from some parts of the crowd.
'Bitter blow'
He said it was "something I could not do", adding: "After many months of a pandemic when we made commitments to stand by key workers, I cannot now look those same workers in the eye and tell them they are not worth a wage that is enough to live on, or that they don't deserve security when they are ill.
Mr McDonald said it was a "bitter blow" that Labour had not followed the country in its "renewed awareness of how important the work done by millions of low-paid workers truly is".
He added: "I joined your frontbench team on the basis of the pledges that you made in the leadership campaign to bring about unity within the party and maintain our commitment to socialist policies.
"After 18 months of your leadership, our movement is more divided than ever and the pledges that you made to the membership."
Responding to the letter, Sir Keir released a statement, which said: "I want to thank Andy for his service in the shadow cabinet.
"Labour's comprehensive New Deal for Working People shows the scale of our ambition and where our priorities lie.
"My focus and that of the whole party is on winning the next general election so we can deliver for working people who need a Labour government."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58713175
Labour conference: Frontbencher Andy McDonald quits in protest at Sir Keir Starmer
Shadow cabinet member Andy McDonald has quit Labour's frontbench with a scathing attack on Sir Keir Starmer.
In his resignation letter - published in the middle of Labour's party conference in Brighton - the MP said his party leader had made Labour "more divided than ever".
Mr McDonald also accused him of not honouring his pledges to members.
Sir Keir thanked the former minister for his service but said his focus was on "winning the next general election".
Mr McDonald previously served as shadow transport secretary on Jeremy Corbyn's frontbench - but he became one of the few members to survive the handover of power to Sir Keir, and stayed in the top team as shadow secretary for employment rights and protections.
In recent months, his focus had been on creating Labour's new programme of employment rights, which was unveiled at the conference on Saturday by deputy leader Angela Rayner.
'Closing the door'
But earlier this week, former shadow chancellor John McDonnell said the work had been overshadowed by Sir Keir's controversial party rule changes.
Mr McDonald said he accepted the job "because I wanted to fight for the working people of this country", but, he wrote: "It has become clear to me that I cannot do this as a member of the shadow cabinet."
Sources close to Sir Keir told the BBC they were not unhappy at the departure, insisting this week was "all about change and closing the door on the Corbyn era".
Labour MP Barry Gardiner - who served alongside Mr McDonald in Mr Corbyn's cabinet - told the BBC he was "extremely shocked" to hear of the resignation, saying he had been "a very powerful voice for workers in the country".
But the founder of left wing Labour activist group Momentum, Jon Lansman, joined Mr McDonald's criticism of Sir Keir, telling BBC News: "He promised to unite the party and actually, unfortunately, he's driving wedges within the party."
Shadow work and pensions secretary Jonathan Reynolds said Mr McDonald "is a friend of mine" and he was "sad to see him go".
But he disagreed with the remarks about division in the party, adding: "We have seen this conference, frankly, Labour facing towards the general election in a way that is not just ambitious in terms of the pledges… but we have also tried to do that in a gain that gains credibility that is required to win power".
As news of the resignation broke in the conference hall, one delegate shouted, "Andy McDonald, solidarity!" to loud cheers from some parts of the crowd.
'Bitter blow'
He said it was "something I could not do", adding: "After many months of a pandemic when we made commitments to stand by key workers, I cannot now look those same workers in the eye and tell them they are not worth a wage that is enough to live on, or that they don't deserve security when they are ill.
Mr McDonald said it was a "bitter blow" that Labour had not followed the country in its "renewed awareness of how important the work done by millions of low-paid workers truly is".
He added: "I joined your frontbench team on the basis of the pledges that you made in the leadership campaign to bring about unity within the party and maintain our commitment to socialist policies.
"After 18 months of your leadership, our movement is more divided than ever and the pledges that you made to the membership."
Responding to the letter, Sir Keir released a statement, which said: "I want to thank Andy for his service in the shadow cabinet.
"Labour's comprehensive New Deal for Working People shows the scale of our ambition and where our priorities lie.
"My focus and that of the whole party is on winning the next general election so we can deliver for working people who need a Labour government."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58713175
An Ankoù
Landlord.
It'll be interesting to see whether Sir Keir actually survives his conference.
She's wasn't wrong was she. And while impolite I don't think her characterisation of Boris as scummy is unfair given his history...
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Further proof that Corbyn's mates are more interesting in fighting Labour than in fighting the Tories. I'll say it again - if you're not helping Labour win the votes who voted Tory in 2019 in places like Swindon and Bournemouth, then you're helping Johnson. Truly the Corbynites have done more to enable Johnson than 90% of the Tory party.
Incidentally, his full resignation letter is here :
I think you’ve got a point. I’m not a Labour member, but reading and listening to what some members have said, it does seem as if they’re more interested in an ideologically pure debating society than actually doing something constructive towards getting rid of this party of, well, dare I say it, scumbags.
I liked Corbyn i thought he was a decent bloke who seemed to give a toss about the people not his position.
Lets be honest labour haven't got a prayer of winning the next election i have always voted labour but couldn't vote for this lot at the moment i will never vote conservative and there isn't a third choice as it has always been a two horse race and will continue to be so until we change the bent way we run elections here..
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Labour’s lost future: the inside story of a 20-year collapse
In 2001 a resurgent Labour Party held 412 seats. Today it has 199. Why?
By Harry Lambert
https://i.postimg.cc/qv64nBDd/pppppp.jpg
Twenty years ago, the Labour Party under Tony Blair cruised to re-election. Labour lost just six seats in 2001, returning 412 MPs. The Conservatives, meanwhile, who lost more than half their seats overnight in 1997, added only one, leaving them on 166.
Throughout its existence, Labour had never been in power for more than six consecutive years. It was re-election, rather than the 1997 landslide, that marked the high point of New Labour. In the wake of its 2001 win, Labour was “broadly hegemonic”, says Douglas Alexander, who coordinated that election for the party. It had won in England, Wales and Scotland. The result appeared to confirm, as John Gray put it in 1997, that “Tory Britain is gone for good”.
Two decades on, it is Labour that has lost more than half its seats. The party’s razor-thin Batley and Spen by-election victory in July may have quietened critics, but it cannot mask the fact that Labour today has only 199 MPs, a loss of 213 over 20 years. The Conservatives, by contrast, have increased their vote share in every election since 1997. In 2019 Boris Johnson won a greater vote share (43.6 per cent) than Blair ever did.
How did Labour collapse? Is the party’s 20-year decline the result of inevitable structural change, or can it be traced back to individual decisions and mistakes? To find out, the New Statesman spoke to more than 20 key figures, from former leaders and ministers to senior advisers. Could they, between them, identify ten key moments in Labour’s collapse?
The roots of Labour’s long decline need to be understood if Keir Starmer is to address them. Since January, his personal approval rating has tumbled from 39 to 26 per cent, which he wished to seem unperturbed by when we spoke in June ahead of Batley and Spen, a by-election he expected to lose. The vaccine roll-out, Starmer told me then, had become “the single biggest determinant of where the polls are in the last six months. One party is up, one party is down, one leader’s up, one leader’s down.” (Starmer’s ratings have not improved in the two months since, even as any feel-good effect from the vaccine has faded.) The Labour leader wanted the party’s most recent period of discontent to be seen as part of a larger story. “There’s been a trend for at least ten years, but arguably since about 2005,” he said, vaguely, “of [a] disconnect, and the loss of what were once traditional strong votes.”
When I asked Starmer to reflect on the sources of Labour’s decline, he highlighted two moments from its years in power: the decision to invade Iraq in 2003, which Starmer opposed as a QC at the time, and Labour’s failure to defend its economic record after the 2008 financial crash. There was, Starmer thinks, a “lack of confidence from 2010 onwards, to defend the last Labour government, and to make the argument that the financial crash wasn’t the fault of the Labour government”.
But there are other failings that are harder for Starmer to highlight, from the party’s ineffectual handling of concerns over immigration to its ill-guided Brexit strategy (in which Starmer, as shadow Brexit secretary, played his part). To understand the causes of Labour’s slide other observers are required, including those outside the party. Nigel Farage puts it bluntly to me: “What you’ve witnessed in slow motion over nearly 20 years is a large section of Labour voters who are absolutely disgusted with the party and are in no rush to go back.”
Many Labour voters are repelled by Farage. (“I do not accept any premise from Nigel Farage,” Starmer says when I put this to him.) But in many of his party’s old heartland seats, it is Farage and Boris Johnson who now have appeal, not Labour. For the former foreign secretary David Miliband, Labour’s 20-year decline is “a failure of politics – it wasn’t inevitable or preordained. We all bear some responsibility.” The party’s broad coalition has shattered – a fracturing that began 20 years ago, on the night Labour celebrated its historic re-election.
Read in full - Labour’s lost future: the inside story of a 20-year collapse
In 2001 a resurgent Labour Party held 412 seats. Today it has 199. Why?
By Harry Lambert
Twenty years ago, the Labour Party under Tony Blair cruised to re-election. Labour lost just six seats in 2001, returning 412 MPs. The Conservatives, meanwhile, who lost more than half their seats overnight in 1997, added only one, leaving them on 166.
Throughout its existence, Labour had never been in power for more than six consecutive years. It was re-election, rather than the 1997 landslide, that marked the high point of New Labour. In the wake of its 2001 win, Labour was “broadly hegemonic”, says Douglas Alexander, who coordinated that election for the party. It had won in England, Wales and Scotland. The result appeared to confirm, as John Gray put it in 1997, that “Tory Britain is gone for good”.
Two decades on, it is Labour that has lost more than half its seats. The party’s razor-thin Batley and Spen by-election victory in July may have quietened critics, but it cannot mask the fact that Labour today has only 199 MPs, a loss of 213 over 20 years. The Conservatives, by contrast, have increased their vote share in every election since 1997. In 2019 Boris Johnson won a greater vote share (43.6 per cent) than Blair ever did.
How did Labour collapse? Is the party’s 20-year decline the result of inevitable structural change, or can it be traced back to individual decisions and mistakes? To find out, the New Statesman spoke to more than 20 key figures, from former leaders and ministers to senior advisers. Could they, between them, identify ten key moments in Labour’s collapse?
The roots of Labour’s long decline need to be understood if Keir Starmer is to address them. Since January, his personal approval rating has tumbled from 39 to 26 per cent, which he wished to seem unperturbed by when we spoke in June ahead of Batley and Spen, a by-election he expected to lose. The vaccine roll-out, Starmer told me then, had become “the single biggest determinant of where the polls are in the last six months. One party is up, one party is down, one leader’s up, one leader’s down.” (Starmer’s ratings have not improved in the two months since, even as any feel-good effect from the vaccine has faded.) The Labour leader wanted the party’s most recent period of discontent to be seen as part of a larger story. “There’s been a trend for at least ten years, but arguably since about 2005,” he said, vaguely, “of [a] disconnect, and the loss of what were once traditional strong votes.”
When I asked Starmer to reflect on the sources of Labour’s decline, he highlighted two moments from its years in power: the decision to invade Iraq in 2003, which Starmer opposed as a QC at the time, and Labour’s failure to defend its economic record after the 2008 financial crash. There was, Starmer thinks, a “lack of confidence from 2010 onwards, to defend the last Labour government, and to make the argument that the financial crash wasn’t the fault of the Labour government”.
But there are other failings that are harder for Starmer to highlight, from the party’s ineffectual handling of concerns over immigration to its ill-guided Brexit strategy (in which Starmer, as shadow Brexit secretary, played his part). To understand the causes of Labour’s slide other observers are required, including those outside the party. Nigel Farage puts it bluntly to me: “What you’ve witnessed in slow motion over nearly 20 years is a large section of Labour voters who are absolutely disgusted with the party and are in no rush to go back.”
Many Labour voters are repelled by Farage. (“I do not accept any premise from Nigel Farage,” Starmer says when I put this to him.) But in many of his party’s old heartland seats, it is Farage and Boris Johnson who now have appeal, not Labour. For the former foreign secretary David Miliband, Labour’s 20-year decline is “a failure of politics – it wasn’t inevitable or preordained. We all bear some responsibility.” The party’s broad coalition has shattered – a fracturing that began 20 years ago, on the night Labour celebrated its historic re-election.
Read in full - Labour’s lost future: the inside story of a 20-year collapse
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Fatcontro11er
Active Member
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Without scrolling through all these posts, in regards to name calling and inappropriate speak, there’s many an example that can be referred to on you tube, the tone has been well and truly set in Boris Johnson’s time as PM in the House of Commons in front of live TV camera’s!!!!
I wouldn’t expect to hear it from my 11 y.o. Children!
Northern working class left leaning family that they come from!!!
I wouldn’t expect to hear it from my 11 y.o. Children!
Northern working class left leaning family that they come from!!!
You wont they will wait until they are no where near you.
As a life long Labour voter it pains me to say -
If he cannot unite the party how can he run the country?
Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has said winning the next election is more important than party unity.
Rows with left-wingers angry over the direction he is taking the party have dominated Labour's annual conference.
But Sir Keir told the BBC Labour had to change to avoid losing a fifth general election in a row.
He said he came into politics "to go into government to change millions of lives", not "lose and then tweet about it".
In an interview with BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg, the Labour leader called on "every single Labour Party member and supporter" to have the same focus on the ballot box as he did.
On Sunday, Sir Keir succeeded in getting the party conference to back changes to the way the party selects leadership candidates, which angered many on the left who saw it as an attempt to marginalise them.
Another row exploded on Monday when shadow employment minister Andy McDonald resigned from his job, claiming Sir Keir had made the party "more divided than ever"
'Tough decisions'
Laura Kuenssberg asked the Labour leader what was more important to him - winning or unity?
"Winning," said Sir Keir. "Winning a general election."
He was then asked why he did not seem to inspire Labour members in the same way his predecessor Jeremy Corbyn did.
"Two years ago we were here in Brighton at Labour party conference and within a few short months we'd crashed to the worst general election results since 1935," he said.
"I am not prepared to let that happen and if that means tough decisions to change our party, which is what I did on Sunday, I am going to take those tough decisions."
Mr Corbyn remains suspended from the Parliamentary Labour Party and sits as an independent MP, following comments he made over the party's handling of anti-Semitism.
Asked if he would re-admit Mr Corbyn, Sir Keir said: "The ball is in Jeremy's court".
He added: "Jeremy was asked to apologise, to take down the posts that caused the problem in the first place and to work with us,."
Sir Keir - who will make his first keynote speech as leader to a hall full of activists on Wednesday - said Andy McDonald was "wrong" to say the party was more divided under his leadership.
But he added: "There will be some people who don't agree with those [changes and] I understand that."
Asked if he thought Labour's left wing was on its way out, he said: "We are a broad church in the Labour Party.
"But I am not going to be deflected from my central mission, which is to get a Labour government so we can change millions of lives."
'Values'
Sir Keir has moved away from some of the pledges he made during last year's leadership contest, such as on nationalisation.
He said he had "never made a commitment to nationalisation", instead proposing "common ownership" for services like rail and mail - two ideas he insisted were "worlds apart".
Asked if the left wing had a right to be angry with him, he said: "Those commitments I made, those pledges I made, are values that I hold dear.
"The world has changed since they were made but now the question is how do we apply them in the reflective circumstance that we find ourselves in going into a general election.
"I stand by the principles and the values that are behind the pledges I made to our members, but the most important pledge I made is that I would turn our party into a party that would be fit for government and capable of winning a general election and I am not going to be deflected from that."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58718835
If he cannot unite the party how can he run the country?
Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has said winning the next election is more important than party unity.
Rows with left-wingers angry over the direction he is taking the party have dominated Labour's annual conference.
But Sir Keir told the BBC Labour had to change to avoid losing a fifth general election in a row.
He said he came into politics "to go into government to change millions of lives", not "lose and then tweet about it".
In an interview with BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg, the Labour leader called on "every single Labour Party member and supporter" to have the same focus on the ballot box as he did.
On Sunday, Sir Keir succeeded in getting the party conference to back changes to the way the party selects leadership candidates, which angered many on the left who saw it as an attempt to marginalise them.
Another row exploded on Monday when shadow employment minister Andy McDonald resigned from his job, claiming Sir Keir had made the party "more divided than ever"
'Tough decisions'
Laura Kuenssberg asked the Labour leader what was more important to him - winning or unity?
"Winning," said Sir Keir. "Winning a general election."
He was then asked why he did not seem to inspire Labour members in the same way his predecessor Jeremy Corbyn did.
"Two years ago we were here in Brighton at Labour party conference and within a few short months we'd crashed to the worst general election results since 1935," he said.
"I am not prepared to let that happen and if that means tough decisions to change our party, which is what I did on Sunday, I am going to take those tough decisions."
Mr Corbyn remains suspended from the Parliamentary Labour Party and sits as an independent MP, following comments he made over the party's handling of anti-Semitism.
Asked if he would re-admit Mr Corbyn, Sir Keir said: "The ball is in Jeremy's court".
He added: "Jeremy was asked to apologise, to take down the posts that caused the problem in the first place and to work with us,."
Sir Keir - who will make his first keynote speech as leader to a hall full of activists on Wednesday - said Andy McDonald was "wrong" to say the party was more divided under his leadership.
But he added: "There will be some people who don't agree with those [changes and] I understand that."
Asked if he thought Labour's left wing was on its way out, he said: "We are a broad church in the Labour Party.
"But I am not going to be deflected from my central mission, which is to get a Labour government so we can change millions of lives."
'Values'
Sir Keir has moved away from some of the pledges he made during last year's leadership contest, such as on nationalisation.
He said he had "never made a commitment to nationalisation", instead proposing "common ownership" for services like rail and mail - two ideas he insisted were "worlds apart".
Asked if the left wing had a right to be angry with him, he said: "Those commitments I made, those pledges I made, are values that I hold dear.
"The world has changed since they were made but now the question is how do we apply them in the reflective circumstance that we find ourselves in going into a general election.
"I stand by the principles and the values that are behind the pledges I made to our members, but the most important pledge I made is that I would turn our party into a party that would be fit for government and capable of winning a general election and I am not going to be deflected from that."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58718835
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