Bakers yeast alcohol tolerance

[An Ankoù]

You used to be able to get an Australian pale beer which came in largish bottles and it was impossible to pour a clear pint as the bottoms were so fluffy. I think it was "Little Creatures", but I could be wrong as it was several decades ago. I loved the flavour of this beer and I somehow got it into my head that it was made with bakers' yeast as it tasted quite "bready". I don't know if anyone else knows this beer. Anyway, I was going to use a block of "L'Hirondelle" to try and get that flavour again. I know bread yeast manufacturers are not especially concerned about low-level contamination with lactobacillus, but I'm going to give it a go anyway.

 

[kelper]

I think JCR is probably correct. A long search of gov.uk turned up the following which I interpret as saying concentrating fermented cereals etc by any process requires a distiller's license. But who's to know if you do it on the QT? HMRC have more to worry about. Just don't sell your icebeer.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/spirits-duty
Overview
Spirits Duty is payable on any spirits, or any mixture or combination of spirits with anything else, at a strength of more than 1.2% alcohol by volume (ABV).

Spirits are liable for Spirits Duty as soon as they’ve been manufactured.

Licensing and approval
To produce spirits in the UK by distilling alcoholic liquids or by any other process, such as cracking ethylene gas, you’ll need:

a distiller’s licence
approval for your plant and process
to account for and pay Spirits Duty to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC)


https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...excise-notice-39-spirits-production-in-the-uk
1.5 Methods of spirits production covered by this notice
The same general requirements and conditions will apply at all spirits production premises, whether spirits production comes:

from fermented cereals
from fermented molasses
by ‘cracking’ ethylene gas
by any other process

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I respectfully suggest that anyone who has a strong opinion either way contact HMRC or a solicitor

There really is no need.
The problem with Freeze Distilling is the word distilling its not distilling as the post below explains.

Freeze distilling isn't actually distillation. It's concentration. It doesn't just concentrate the alcohol. It concentrates the flavour and the impurities too.

 

[Horners]

I think JCR is probably correct. A long search of gov.uk turned up the following which I interpret as saying concentrating fermented cereals etc by any process requires a distiller's license. But who's to know if you do it on the QT? HMRC have more to worry about. Just don't sell your icebeer.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/spirits-duty
Overview
Spirits Duty is payable on any spirits, or any mixture or combination of spirits with anything else, at a strength of more than 1.2% alcohol by volume (ABV).

Spirits are liable for Spirits Duty as soon as they’ve been manufactured.

Licensing and approval
To produce spirits in the UK by distilling alcoholic liquids or by any other process, such as cracking ethylene gas, you’ll need:

a distiller’s licence
approval for your plant and process
to account for and pay Spirits Duty to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC)


https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...excise-notice-39-spirits-production-in-the-uk
1.5 Methods of spirits production covered by this notice
The same general requirements and conditions will apply at all spirits production premises, whether spirits production comes:

from fermented cereals
from fermented molasses
by ‘cracking’ ethylene gas
by any other process

See my previous post in this thread - they do not meet legal definition of spirits in the first place so as you are not producing spirits this guidance would be irrelevant.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Spirits Duty is payable on any spirits, or any mixture or combination of spirits with anything else, at a strength of more than 1.2% alcohol by volume (ABV).
Spirits are liable for Spirits Duty as soon as they’ve been manufactured.

You are not making a spirit you are making alcohol you have already made higher in ABV by using the freezing method.



But what are alcoholic spirits, exactly?
All alcoholic beverages are made by fermenting some form of sugary brew into ethanol and CO2. Because yeast can only ferment so much before alcohol levels become toxic to them, we have to distill (or physically separate out the water) to get higher alcohol concentrations. And that’s why “spirits” are differentiated in two ways: they’re distilled, and they have higher average ABVs, from around 20% to as high as 80 or 90% ABV (most spirits fall somewhere much closer to the middle).

https://vinepair.com/spirits-101/what-are-spirits/

 

[kelper]

@Horners please quote the relevant wording that you are referring too. That's a very lengthy document describing what can be sold as a 'spirits drink' it says nothing about the making of spirits.

 

[kelper]

@Horners please quote the relevant wording that you are referring too. That's a very lengthy document describing what can be sold as a 'spirits drink' it says nothing about the making of spirits.

@Chippy_Tea but that's a US website in your link.

Distilling (or any other process) is increasing the ABV of any fermented drink. Freeze concentrating beer or wine falls under the HMRC rules on distilling.
This would also include using reverse osmosis to concentrate it.

 

[Horners]

@Horners please quote the relevant wording that you are referring too. That's a very lengthy document describing what can be sold as a 'spirits drink' it says nothing about the making of spirits.

Article 2 definition of a spirit drink:

it is intended for human consumption;

(b)	it possesses particular organoleptic qualities;

(c)	it has a minimum alcoholic strength by volume of 15 %, except in the case of spirit drinks that comply with the requirements of category 39 of Annex I;

(d)

it has been produced either: (i) directly by using, individually or in combination, any of the following methods: — distillation, with or without added flavourings or flavouring foodstuffs, of fermented products, — the maceration or similar processing of plant materials in ethyl alcohol of agricultural origin, distillates of agricultural origin or spirit drinks or a combination thereof, — the addition, individually or in combination, to ethyl alcohol of agricultural origin, distillates of agricultural origin or spirit drinks of any of the following: — flavourings used in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 1334/2008, — colours used in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 1333/2008, — other authorised ingredients used in accordance with Regulations (EC) No 1333/2008 and (EC) No 1334/2008, — sweetening products, — other agricultural products, — foodstuffs; or

 

[kelper]

Thanks, I read that earlier but it does not match the description from HMRC of Spirits. And it's a EU regulation. We aren't in the EU - natch!

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Distilling (or any other process) is increasing the ABV of any fermented drink. Freeze concentrating beer or wine falls under the HMRC rules on distilling.
This would also include using reverse osmosis to concentrate it.

Spirits Duty is payable on any spirits, or any mixture or combination of spirits with anything else, at a strength of more than 1.2% alcohol by volume (ABV).
Spirits are liable for Spirits Duty as soon as they’ve been manufactured.

The above doesn't say anything about "increasing the ABV of any fermented drink" it is discussing making spirit which another member has already pointed out to you.

 

[Drunkula]

Ok, been delaying posting this to see if there was any fun. Loads of people will have seen it.



If you jump to 16:40 Secue talks about talking to the head brewer at Brewdog about Sink the Bismark which is 61% from fractional freezing. No special license needed. Then shows him at Brewdog trying Tactical Nuclear Penguin during the freezing.

Of course you can keep squabbling if you like and say "Well he's not HMRC..."

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Using the freezing method (not distilling) to make a fermented drink higher in ABV is not illegal in the U.K and until someone posts evidence that it is the mod team will not remove any discussion on the subject.

 

[kelper]

Spirits Duty is payable on any spirits, or any mixture or combination of spirits with anything else, at a strength of more than 1.2% alcohol by volume (ABV).
Spirits are liable for Spirits Duty as soon as they’ve been manufactured.

The above doesn't say anything about "increasing the ABV of any fermented drink" it is discussing making spirit which another member has already pointed out to you.

But it does say exactly that, distilling is defined thus.- To produce spirits in the UK by distilling alcoholic liquids or by any other process and you need a license.

Please read post 22 where I quoted this exact phrase AND posted a link to it!!!

I am not preaching that we should not use freeze concentration, I'm just backing up JCR's assertion that is not legal.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

To produce spirits in the UK by distilling alcoholic liquids or by any other process

You seem to be missing the point the first 3 words are To produce spirits when you freeze distil you are not distilling and you are not making a spirit if you made cider twice as strong by freezing it it wouldn't be a spirit so as i said earlier -

Using the freezing method (not distilling) to make a fermented drink higher in ABV is not illegal in the U.K and until someone posts evidence that it is the mod team will not remove any discussion on the subject.

.

 

[Linalmeemow]

I love it when this argument comes up again and again and again....

 

[kelper]

But a distiller's license is required for any process that has the same effect as heat distilling. Spirit duty is due on any spirit or spirit mix over 1.2% so I don't see why wine, beer or cider concentrators think they are not in the game of making spirits,

 

[Drunkula]

But a distiller's license is required for any process that has the same effect as heat distilling.

So why didn't Brewdog need one for Tactical Nuclear Penguin and Sink the Bismark?

 

[LED_ZEP]

As per Oxford English Dictionary:

So if the EU definition of spirits requires distillation as it appears to, it's not referring to the method commonly know as "freeze concentration".

We aren't in the EU

Yes we are till the end of this year.

 

[kelper]

So why don't Brewdog need one?

Because they're an American company?

 

[kelper]

As per Oxford English Dictionary:

View attachment 30446

I know what distilling means, thank you. But HMRC requires a distilling license for distilling or any process.......................