Beersmith and CRS/AMS

[Dillz]

Hi All,

I am tinkering with the water profile tab in beersmith so that I can use it to understand how much gypsum and calcium chloride additions to add whilst also using CRS to reduce PH slightly. Can someone sense check the following to say that what I am doing makes sense?

My alkalinity confirmed with a salifert kit is 102, and my PH is 7.4. So let's say I want to reduce the water alkalinity for a pale ale with CRS. The Murphy's data sheet for AMS say that if I reduce my alkalinity by 64ppm then I will increase chloride by 22.5 ppm and sulphate by 31ppm.

As beersmith doesn't have CRS in the options, I was thinking of just increasing my base water chloride and sulphate values to include the additional chloride and sulphates that the CRS will add. Beersmith will then work out the additions required to reach my target profile.

Does this approach sound reasonable?
Thanks

 

[dan125]

Yep - that's how I did it when using CRS.

 

[Dillz]

That's great! Thanks.

 

[Torshon]

I have a question with this, if I add crs and it changes the sulfate chloride and alkalinity does it change the pH?
And if so how do I calculate this as I use beersmith have changed my water profile to be adjusted for CRS but was wondering if it changes the PH
Regards

 

[strange-steve]

I have a question with this, if I add crs and it changes the sulfate chloride and alkalinity does it change the pH?
And if so how do I calculate this as I use beersmith have changed my water profile to be adjusted for CRS but was wondering if it changes the PH
Regards

Yes it will lower the pH but don't worry about it, it won't affect anything, the starting pH of the water is mostly irrelevant.

 

[Torshon]

Cool thanks for replying so promptly,
Will be looking at beersmith tonight so I can get the profile I want before brew day

 

[johncrobinson]

Steve-strange or strange-steve is a guy who really knows his onions

If only we could put this kind of expertise into software.!!!

Instead of the half baked **** most of us have to put up with.

 

[MattGuk]

Old thread I know, I have been getting confused a little with water treatment of late.
The online calculators always seem to grossly over estimate CRS/AMS additions to me.
I know starting P.H is irrelevant, however while preparing my water last night for an IPA, my alkalinity started at 158ppm and according to one calculator I required 26ml if CRS to bring the alkalinity down to about 20.
Re tested after 20 mins to allow CRS to work and as soon as I added 4 drop of the blue indicator liquid it turned bright pink, so I tested my P.H and it had dropped to 3.7 so that calculator definitely over estimates how much to add.
I simply removed 6 litres of treated water and replaced with tap water and that got my P.h back up to 5.7 so hopefully my mash won't drop too low.

 

[strange-steve]

according to one calculator I required 26ml if CRS to bring the alkalinity down to about 20.

What software was it and what was the volume of water being treated?

I tested my P.H and it had dropped to 3.7 so that calculator definitely over estimates how much to add

If the pH really was 3.7 then yes you've used too much CRS, below about 4.3 there is 0 alkalinity in the water, which is why the indicator changed straight away.

One thing you could try just to confirm the strength of your CRS is to take 1L of water, measure the alkalinity, then add 0.5ml of CRS, stir it in, and retest the alkalinity. This should in theory remove about 90ppm of alkalinity.

 

[MattGuk]

Thanks for the reply Steve, I used the water treatment calculator over on JBK.
I treated 36 liters of water but it would seem I would have been better off going with about 18ml.
I'm currently mashing now and after adding some tap water back the mash P.H has settled at 5.5.
I would love to use BruNwater but all my devices run on Android and I have a chromebook and the spreadsheet doesn't seem to work on these platforms.
Can I ask what software you use for water treatment?
I have used brewers friend but seemed to underestimate how much I needed.

 

[strange-steve]

Thanks for the reply Steve, I used the water treatment calculator over on JBK.
I treated 36 liters of water but it would seem I would have been better off going with about 18ml.

That's not a problem with the software, because according to the figures from Murphy's that is the correct dose for that volume. So assuming you've used the KH test kit properly (and I'm sure you have) the only other explanation is that the CRS is stronger than labeled, which isn't unheard of. Carry out the test I mentioned above and then you'll know if that's the case.

Can I ask what software you use for water treatment?

I created my own little Java script calculator (see here for info) which uses pH prediction calculations by Braukaiser, but for CRS additions I used Murphy's figures, like the calculator at JBK, so it will probably give you the same results. But once you've figured out the strength of your CRS it should be a simple adjustment.

 

[peebee]

"Mash-Made-Easy" ("MME") works with AMS/CRS and won't cost anything.

I'll admit to using "Bru'n Water" but only because that is currently working with my kookie water (Dwr Cymru have been mucking about with it for a while and accuracy of predicted pH in calculators tends to shift about). "Bru'n Water" does get criticised for using some dated modelling and being full of bugs, not that I really notice, but I hold on to "MME" for when my water company's treatment settles down and perhaps favours "MME" (the author of "MME" does seem to put a lot of effort into that calculator - current version 9.7 and mine's 9.5 ... I'd better update it!).

But take note: Different calculators may return different results, but only one will be right for you! (And what's right for you may not be right for someone else).

MashMadeEasy

 

[strange-steve]

"Mash-Made-Easy" ("MME") works with AMS/CRS and won't cost anything.

I'll admit to using "Bru'n Water" but only because that is currently working with my kookie water (Dwr Cymru have been mucking about with it for a while and accuracy of predicted pH in calculators tends to shift about). "Bru'n Water" does get criticised for using some dated modelling and being full of bugs, not that I really notice, but I hold on to "MME" for when my water company's treatment settles down and perhaps favours "MME" (the author of "MME" does seem to put a lot of effort into that calculator - current version 9.7 and mine's 9.5 ... I'd better update it!).

But take note: Different calculators may return different results, but only one will be right for you! (And what's right for you may not be right for someone else).

MashMadeEasy

I believe the man behind MME is a member here too, @Argentum, if the OP has any questions.

 

[Argentum]

I believe the man behind MME is a member here too, @Argentum, if the OP has any questions.

Indeed that is me. MME version 9.70 adds manual override capability for malt buffering coefficients. Combined with the previous ability to add manual override for malts DI water pH, this should let users who test their malts for pHDI (or DI_pH) and buffering coefficient to seriously hone in on mash pH precision.

As to AMS/CRS I've done some serious technical level thinking on it, and here is a link to it on this forums sister forum in the States. My input begins at post #22 and continues through post #40. Question about Carbonate reducing solution

 

[Argentum]

Buffering Coefficient = (mEq's of acid added)/((pHDI - PH_F) x Kg.)

Example for a hypothetical Pilsner type base malt:

Givens:
pHDI = 5.83 = the malts wort pH as measured at room temperature when mashed in DI water
PH_F = 5.40 (where pH_F = the final mash pH after adding a measured mEq's of acid to a mash carried out within DI water)
mEq's of acid added = 15
Kg. of the malt mashed = 1 Kg.

Buffering Coefficient = 15/((5.83 - 5.40) x 1 Kg.)
Buffering Coefficient = BC = 34.88