Bleach No Rinse Sanitiser

[braziliain]

I'm going to give this a go on my next 1Gal brew.

http://beerliever.com/bleach-no-rinse-sanitiser-home-brewing-beer/

I just wanted to run my dilution calculation past a few other brains as it seems at odds with the advice in the link...

I bought some Savers Thin Bleach, and it states that there is 0.99g available chlorine to 100g. So from that I am taking it that it is 1% chlorine.

The link states that I should mix it with water down to 80ppm (parts per million)

So, for 10L of sanitiser, I make that 80ml of bleach.

The link states 1oz (25ml) per 25L, so my calc seems high, more than double! It states to mix equal measures of bleach and vinegar, but 80ml of vinegar seems a lot.


Any thoughts?

Thanks

 

[Pfeffer]

First check to make sure your bleach (sodium hypochlorite) and does not have any additives. Some cleaning bleaches have additives to make them more powerful, shiny, thicker, foamier etc. You don't want that in your brew.

If it's actually true bleach (usually the case with cheap bleach) I'd opt for a more neutral smelling acid. I'm also interested in the outcome. If I can find some time I'll do some calculations on other common acids to see if I can come up with something that doesn't stink like a dead skunk.

 

[braziliain]

The only ingredient listed on the label is Sodium Hypochlorite. It says:

Disinfectant: Sodium Hypochlorite (available chlorine 0.99g/100g)

Nothing else mentioned in the ingredients at all.

I think the idea in the article is that everything is so highly diluted that it doesn't smell at all. Even with distilled vinegar.

 

[Pfeffer]

That´s positive. Any other additive would make it more expensive, so cheap bleach usually is.. bleach. I didn´t see the pic on my phone earlier. Especially thickening and shine additives can be hard to get out (as found in the more expensive toilet cleaners) as they are meant to withstand rushing water as much as possible.

 

[Poochops]

Just as per cent means out of a hundred, so parts per million or ppm means out of a million. One ppm is equivalent to 1 milligram of something per liter of water. so 80 ppm is equivalent 80mg per litre, or 800mg per 10 litre, as your bleach is 1000mg per 100mls, you're blob on at 80ml in your 10litre batch.

That fellas calc is misleading, he's got 50,000mg per 1000ml, or 5000mg per 100ml (=5% bleach.) so he's got 50mg per ml X 25ml = 1250mg in 22.5litres of water giving 55ppm. His bleach is 5 times stronger than yours.

My head hurts after that.

 

[braziliain]

My head too!

From reading around, I think that typically American household bleaches have a higher sodium hypochlorite content (5-6%) as the article suggests.

A little more reading seems to suggest that the available chlorine is 'released' when the acid is added to the solution. I think this is why the bleach and the acid are added in equal measure but to be honest, this is the part I am less sure of. 80ml of vinegar just seems like a lot!

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Poochops]

Ahhh if he's using US measurements then he's got 30ml in 19litres! 1500mg / 19l is 78ppm!

I suppose its only 8ml of vinegar in a litre, if you used white vinegar it has less flavour than malt, try it in a glass and see if you can taste it.

 

[ravey]

I use savers thin bleach as well, and I use 8 or 9ml (whichever I manage to hit first on the scales) each of bleach and vinegar in 5l of water. I don't recall how I arrived at that figure but that's what I've been using for months with no issues.

 

[Poochops]

I use savers thin bleach as well, and I use 8 or 9ml (whichever I manage to hit first on the scales) each of bleach and vinegar in 5l of water. I don't recall how I arrived at that figure but that's what I've been using for months with no issues.

Do you use it like starsan? I mean like spray it on and let it stand for a minute and away you go? And does it keep? Thanks

 

[ravey]

I don't spray it but I don't see any reason that wouldn't work. I don't know if it keeps, just had a look and found this.

 

[braziliain]

I've been doing some more thinking (uh oh...)

I found this which suggests that 'available chlorine' is very nearly a direct comparison of 'percentage mass of Sodium Hypochlorite'



So, if the recommended 80ppm = 30ml in 19L (for 5% Sodium Hypochlorite)
Then = 1.58ml per litre of water.
x 5L = 7.89ml per 5 litres of water which is around 8ml as Ravey says.

However, for Savers Thin Bleach which is 1% 'available chlorine' which is very nearly 1% 'percentage mass of Sodium Hypochlorite' I think you need 5 times as much.

So 40ml per 5 litres of water.


As for the acid, it seems to be used for to bring the pH back closer to neutral after adding the bleach. If the bleach is only 1% rather than 5% then I assume the pH will be lower and the amount of acid to be added will be less than with 5% bleach. Any chemists out there? :lol:

According to the Clorox website, their 6% Sodium Hypochlorite solution has a pH of 12.6

 

[braziliain]

Did a little experiment this evening.

So, I mixed up the following:

500ml tap water
4ml Morissons Savers Thin Bleach (approx. 1% SH) - equivalent of 80ml/10L
4ml Sarsons Distilled White Vinegar - equivalent of 80ml/10L

I added the bleach to the water first and stirred thoroughly. I then gave it a sniff and there was the faintest hint of bleach (or maybe I imagined it as it really was so faint). However, I tasted it and it was like TCP.

Then I added the vinegar and straight away the solution ponged of vinegar. I rinsed a bottle with the solution, drained it and the bottle still wreaked of vinegar. You could never put a beer in there and sleep at night.

Then I tested the pH of the solution and it was around 6 (estimate, as reading off a colour chart). According to the article on Beerliever it should have been around 8, so it was the wrong side of neutral.

I'm taking from this that with 1% SH bleach, you do not need equal measures of vinegar/bleach to bring the pH back to 8.

I think my scales are probably not precise enough to measure these small quantities of liquid, so I will attempt to find a syringe before going any further with this...

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi!
A US fluid ounce is roughly 30ml. Charlie Talley recommends 1 ounce for 5 gallons (US), which is 30ml per 4.25 gallons (UK), or 7.2ml per gallon (UK), which is 1.58ml per litre. That works out at roughly 8ml per 5 litres. Measuring 8 ml - that's another problem.

 

[braziliain]

Hi!
A US fluid ounce is roughly 30ml. Charlie Talley recommends 1 ounce for 5 gallons (US), which is 30ml per 4.25 gallons (UK), or 7.2ml per gallon (UK), which is 1.58ml per litre. That works out at roughly 8ml per 5 litres. Measuring 8 ml - that's another problem.

Thanks for the reply.
The problem comes because I believe American bleach has a higher concentration of SH than British bleach. Possibly 5 times more.

My bleach is labelled up as 0.99g/100g of available chlorine. Most American household bleaches are around 5-6%.

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi!
Yes, I realised that after I'd posted.
Common sense suggests that, as thin UK bleach is just under 1%, multiply by 5 to get 40ml per 5 litres.
I found a dilution calculator online. Starting with a stock solution at 9900ppm (bleach) and aiming for 80ppm, the dilution rate is 40.4 ml per 5 litres, so 40ml seems about right.
Personally, I'd go for 41.25ml per 5 litres, as I have a 1.25ml measuring spoon. The final solution would be 81.675ppm, so not much more than the recommended solution.
I assume only 1 oz (8ml) of vinegar is necessary to get the desired pH of 8.