Bottling a Session Hazy IPA

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BasementArtie

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I've only skimmed this thread so sorry if I missed it. When will you try ascorbic acid in the bottling process?
I won't. I found SMB not to have any difference and currently based on my finding so far here I'm likely just to be bottling high.
 

ssashton

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I won't. I found SMB not to have any difference and currently based on my finding so far here I'm likely just to be bottling high.
Is that because you don't like ascorbic acid, or you just don't feel then need?

I gather a lot of commercial breweries that have an open canning system use ascorbic acid in bottling / canning to help keep oxygen off lighter hoppy beers.
 

BasementArtie

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Is that because you don't like ascorbic acid, or you just don't feel then need?

I gather a lot of commercial breweries that have an open canning system use ascorbic acid in bottling / canning to help keep oxygen off lighter hoppy beers.
Currently don't think I need it. Maybe something in the future may change that but based off of my Triple NEIPA and this Session Hazy so far I'm happy with the results I get from bottling high. The only other thing I may change is a reduced temperature boil ~90-92C to reduce any darkening during this process.
 

BasementArtie

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Quick question - if I’m filling high, do I need to go out and find a dealer or can I just sniff some glue?
Sniffing glue will get you there definitely just I don't know if you'll be able to maintain the level of composure needed to bottle a batch of beer.
 

BasementArtie

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Just bottled a fairly hoppy IPA and have bottled it high after reading your experiments.
It's pretty light in colour so it will be interesting to see if it stays so as just about all my brews seem to darken with age.
Ooo the pressure I feel from this statement. Be sure to let me know how you get on.

I'm testing the last four bottles (each variable) after 4 1/2 months on Saturday, these bottle have been sitting temperatures from 2-25C since August and 16-20C in the house for the last 3 weeks. Day 138 is when they'll be open and it'll be interesting to see if there is any huge differences between bottling high or not.
 

BasementArtie

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So these bottes have been stored since bottling on the 25 August 2021 at temperatures ranging from 25C to 2C. The last three four weeks or so they were brought back into the house which is ~18C. Fridged for the last week since the 2nd Jan 2022 and opened on the 8th Jan 2022. 4.5month since they were bottled. 137 days in total.

I've got to start out and say for 4.5 months all of these beers are extremely drinkable if you take the flavour in isolation.


Over-filled Brown bottle 500ml -

The smell surprised me that there was so much hop presence however it also surprised me to see it was the darkest of all of the variables. Flavour has most definitely and expectedly dulled, there may be some undertones of sherry like oxidation coming in however you can still taste the hops and it's not 100 miles away from how it originally tasted.


Over-filled Grolsch bottle 450ml -

Pop goes the weasel. This one burst open in comparison leading me to again to believe the seals on the brown bottles aren't the best (they will be changed). The smell of this one was big hit of hops like it hasn't been stored at all. Colour was the brightest of all of the variables. However, I don't know if it was the increased carbonation but the hop profile seemed to be mellowed. Even in comparison to the darkest one (brown overfilled).


Normal filled Brown bottle 500ml -

I have no idea what happened here. Shocked me to be honest. The pour was near 100% flat but the colour was lighter than the overfilled bottle. As it tasted like a flat and dulled version of bottle the overfilled version and as I didn't pour all the beer our the bottle I resealed it swirled and there was carbonation in the bottle 🤷 no idea what happened (I know the swirl would have introduced yeast back in and changed the flavour however I tried it before I did that). Taste wise as it was flat and it was most definitely the worst of all the variables, it had lost more hop flavour and smell than that of the overfilled despite being lighter and less carbonated. Strangely as I was expecting this one to be the darkest this was the second lightest bottle.


Normal filled Grolsch bottle 450ml -

Carbonation was equal of that of the overfilled version "pop goes the weasel". Actually again another surprise the hop smell from the crack of the bottle was the most prominent of the lot. Second darkest variable (where I expected it to be). Equally as mellow as it's overfilled counterpart. Knew there we hops but the prickly carbonation seemed to be masking it.


Not much of a Conclusion

All showing signs of oxidation in some form or another to varying degrees but not having the huge impact I would expect. Which has left me confused as what I'm seeing isn't a correlation between colour, hop presence retainment and flavour loss. Yes the darker coloured beer had oxidised sherry undertones but the smell and flavour of hops was more pronounced than that of the lighter underfilled version. Some variables could be influenced by container size and colour, overfilll or regular fill but also seal strength etc. I'm struggling to draw conclusions from this one. However it's left me open to revisit other things. Despite all this for bottles of beer treated so badly they weren't undrinkable at all.

What I believe I can draw from this as well all already knew Grolsch Bottles are awesome. I think if we use these bottles as a reference due to the consistency of these bottles in terms of colour of beer and carbonation throughout, they have been much better than the brown home-brew-shop ones. The filling high has made the colour stay brighter than its counterpart, but in terms of flavour I do believe there has been some degradation in both these versions albeit not as much as I was expecting. I will continue to overfill on these styles (and change seals on the other bottles). I also think I'll try reduce kette temp ~93C and possibly try SMB again and ascorbic acid in the future.

We will succeed and learn from past failures in an attempt to make bottling hazy possible 🤣.
 

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BasementArtie

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Just bottled a fairly hoppy IPA and have bottled it high after reading your experiments.
It's pretty light in colour so it will be interesting to see if it stays so as just about all my brews seem to darken with age.
Any update regarding this batch?
 
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Just skim read through your experiment.
I could see you mention about purging with C02 but you mention about carbonating in bottle. Were these bottle conditioned or keg carbonated and bottled off a keg?

I only ask as you mentioned about the problems people were having with oxidation with hoppy beers. I used to bottle condition all beers and never had a noticeable problem with oxidation..so if you are a believer of the oxygen scavenging effect of yeast in bottle conditioning then this will have a big effect.

When I started using a counter pressure bottle filler on force carbonated keg beer, this was when I started having issues with oxidation...I almost sold my bottle filler because of it. I didn't have a problem with oxidation when using a silicone tube attached to my beer tap when filling from the bottom of the bottle and capping on foam.

I have now figured it out, capping on foam is very important. I read some comments that when removing the bottling wand it caused a vacuum pulling oxygen into the headspace just before capping. The counter pressure fillers are so good at producing little foam that I was capping with minimal foam and potentially oxygen in the headspace.
Now I purge, fill under pressure, remove the wand and just as the tip of the wand is at the top of the bottle I flick the tap on and off to cause some foaming and also less headspace. Since using this method I have had much less oxidation issues when bottling carbonated keg beer.
 

BasementArtie

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View attachment 62675Sadly I'd say this was just on the turn. Still drinkable but definitely deteriorated. Maybe it was a duff Grolsch bottle seal.
I've done a Citra IPA recently and bottled using this top up method and oxygen scavenging crown caps to compare.
Trouble is I'm on Keto for a good few weeks now, so no beer!
We'll definitely see how the latest citra batch IPA holds up then after a few weeks!
 

BasementArtie

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Just skim read through your experiment.
I could see you mention about purging with C02 but you mention about carbonating in bottle. Were these bottle conditioned or keg carbonated and bottled off a keg?

I only ask as you mentioned about the problems people were having with oxidation with hoppy beers. I used to bottle condition all beers and never had a noticeable problem with oxidation..so if you are a believer of the oxygen scavenging effect of yeast in bottle conditioning then this will have a big effect.

When I started using a counter pressure bottle filler on force carbonated keg beer, this was when I started having issues with oxidation...I almost sold my bottle filler because of it. I didn't have a problem with oxidation when using a silicone tube attached to my beer tap when filling from the bottom of the bottle and capping on foam.

I have now figured it out, capping on foam is very important. I read some comments that when removing the bottling wand it caused a vacuum pulling oxygen into the headspace just before capping. The counter pressure fillers are so good at producing little foam that I was capping with minimal foam and potentially oxygen in the headspace.
Now I purge, fill under pressure, remove the wand and just as the tip of the wand is at the top of the bottle I flick the tap on and off to cause some foaming and also less headspace. Since using this method I have had much less oxidation issues when bottling carbonated keg beer.
I was bottle conditioning and filling the bottles near to the brim of normal headspace. The strange thing is bottle conditioning oxidation of hazy IPA style beer seems to be extremely prevalent even with the active yeast scavenging the oxygen which remains in the bottle. On my next batch just to be safe and for piece of mind I'm going to dose SMB with the dry hop and a solution of SMB in each bottle as well as filling high. Mainly because using 25g/L of hops and I don't want this next Neipa to be ruined and go brown / purple. Hopefully my new seals on my brown 500ml bottles won't leak this time. 🤞
 
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I was bottle conditioning and filling the bottles near to the brim of normal headspace. The strange thing is bottle conditioning oxidation of hazy IPA style beer seems to be extremely prevalent even with the active yeast scavenging the oxygen which remains in the bottle. On my next batch just to be safe and for piece of mind I'm going to dose SMB with the dry hop and a solution of SMB in each bottle as well as filling high. Mainly because using 25g/L of hops and I don't want this next Neipa to be ruined and go brown / purple. Hopefully my new seals on my brown 500ml bottles won't leak this time. 🤞
Something else you may won't to be careful of when bottle conditioning and using SMB for oxygen scavenging.
I am hearing this second hand and I may have had this effect me although I couldn't pick it up.
SMB in beer that still has active yeast fermentation can cause sulphur in the beer(eggy aroma). Apparently this only occurs when there is still active yeast in the beer and causes a chemical reaction (can't remember the science). I added SMB to a Kegged beer and was judged by a qualified judge who is sensitive to sulphur and he picked up sulphur. At LAB home brew club, one of the guys had a keg of NEIPA effected at a level that it was obvious to everyone after treating the keg with SMB. If your using in bottle conditioning then there is definitely going to be active yeast so this could be a risk to the flavour/aroma profile.
 

Agentgonzo

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From what I've heard, the chemical reactions that happen are
  • SMB when dissolved in water disassociates into sodium and metabisilphite ions
  • The metabisilphite ions then break down into <something> and sulphur dioxide
  • Sulphur dioxide is the egg smell
So no yeast is involved.
From my understanding, the sulphur dioxide reacts with excess oxygen and if you get the ratios correct, you don't get the egg smell.

Also, I'm lead to believe and SMB stops yeast being active. So I don't understand how you can bottle condition under the presence of SMB.

I'm no chemist, so my understanding may be wrong.... So many questions.
 
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From what I've heard, the chemical reactions that happen are
  • SMB when dissolved in water disassociates into sodium and metabisilphite ions
  • The metabisilphite ions then break down into <something> and sulphur dioxide
  • Sulphur dioxide is the egg smell
So no yeast is involved.
From my understanding, the sulphur dioxide reacts with excess oxygen and if you get the ratios c
Good point about the SMB stopping yeast activity.

I think the yeast affect causes Hydrogen Sulfide in the presence of Sulphite when there is fermentation still happening, which would be trapped in the keg or bottle if it occurred after packaging.

Not something i know too much about other than being pointed to the potential issue.

some reading that may be of interest or bore you to sleep..

3.2 - 3.3 talk about this issue potential

 

Agentgonzo

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I also probably got hydrogen sulphide and sulphur dioxide mixed up. I told you I wasn't a chemist!
 

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