Brewer's Invert Sugar

[peebee]

As I understand it, what we are offered here in the States by the big box stores as 'light, medium, and dark' "brown sugar", are merely fully refined white table sugar to which varying degrees and/or darknesses or grades of molasses have been back-added and blended.

Yes, we do have that over here too. I guess it means the "base" sugar can also be highly refined beet sugar? But if it says "raw" over here it will mean the cane sugar wasn't refined so much in the first place. I doubt it'll make much difference to making Invert Sugar as it is still molasses they "colour" the sugar with.

I've heard of "turbinado" sugar but only in foreign literature, I've never seen it for sale over here. Gawd knows where "turbinado" comes from, I thought it was the US?

 

[peebee]

... doubt it'll make much difference to making Invert Sugar as it is still molasses they "colour" the sugar with. ...

The reason you need the molasses is it's full of other junk (not just flavour). Such as "albuminoids" (amino acids) which along with "reducing sugars" (the products of "inversion"; sucrose is a non-reducing sugar) are pre-cursors to the Maillard browning (and flavouring) products.



Maillard reactions are horribly complicated. Just think of it as I do ... "Magic does exist".

 

[Argentum]

I'd guess (based strictly upon color) that you might call turbinado: "demerara light".

https://www.delightedcooking.com/what-is-turbinado-sugar.htm

 

[peebee]

Just one or two more posts and I cry for help!

If you are waiting for me to post answers ... hard luck! But I will post some potential answers.

Yeah. Well that didn't happen did it. But the help has poured in anyway.

I must get back to finishing what I started, but the finish will be different to what I imagined at the beginning. I had thought this thread would come up with some decent "fabrications", but it's leading me towards making the stuff.

Originally I imagined peering over a seething pot of intensely hot sugar syrup, mess everywhere , for hours on end, yeuck! But it's not like that at all. Okay, when initially going through the "inverting" stage there is a bit of seething, boiling, sugar syrup, but the colouring stage is relatively sedate. I imagined @Hanglow's "stick it in the oven and forget" technique was a dubious (and hazardous) trick that resulted in an "approximation". But it's not. It's the real deal (and not so hazardous after-all).

I wonder how many others are allowing misconceptions to put them off trying invert sugar?


There's even a hint of what's to come commercially:

"Made from raw cane sugar, Becker's Traditional Invert #1 is the perfect choice for English and Belgian ales ", Whippee! But it is quite a price and getting it over here (UK) from the States won't be cheap either.

And a bit further down the page we have "Invert sugar is fructose and glucose instead of sucrose. These sugars have a different mouth feel and taste then sucrose. They are easier for yeast to consume than sucrose" ...

Gawd, not that clap-trap again. I've suddenly lost all confidence in that bunch. I wonder how many people read Bull-S*** like this and think "I'll use white granulated sugar"? I know for years I was one!

 

[Alan_Reginato]

Ok. I will do a new thread when I have it done, but to enter in the discussion... I'm about bottling a experimental batch. I split a Pilsen wort in two fermenters and add inverted caramel to one and homemade belgian syrup (inverted sugar, protein and ammonium bicarbonate after, to rise the pH) to other. They tastes and smells differently, that's for sure. But I kind prefer the inverted caramel. Even in the samples I took, from the fermenter. And it's easier to prepare.

The Belgian stuff was a mess. The Maillard reaction took off pretty fast, but rised up a foam monster of hot sticky sugar... Use gloves and a big pan if you try anything like that.

In a month from now, I will have some results and would like to share, that's why we are in the forum, right?

 

[peebee]

Ok. I will do a new thread when I have it done, but to enter in the discussion...

Are you comparing like-with-like. What is this "inverted caramel". Your idea of "Maillard reaction" will be a bit off; it's a slow change to colour (and flavour) due to complex organic processes, not foamy goings on. Adding bicarbonate to acid inverted sugar syrup ... now that'll foam!

Now we haven't been discussing "Belgium syrup" in this thread. it's not the same. We've been discussing brewer's invert sugar as made in the UK.

 

[chthon]

Now we haven't been discussing "Belgium syrup" in this thread. it's not the same. We've been discussing brewer's invert sugar as made in the UK.

Indeed, that is why I refrained bit from some potential answers, because I know that the used sugars and the way they are produced differ between Britain and Belgium. To start with, the sources differ. British brewing sugars are (mostly? all?) derived from cane sugar, Belgian from beet sugar, sugar beets being a replacement since Napoleonic times.

What I historically see (from BarclayPerkinsEtc& recipes), is that in the 19th century, brewing logbooks show the making of invert sugar, with references to used acids and pickling lime. In recipes from between the wars there are all kinds of references to commercial products (which again sometimes drive Ronald Pattinson a bit nuts, it seems).

 

[Alan_Reginato]

Maillard could be a fast reaction, if there's heat involved. Ask to a steak how does it feel.

I know it's different, because of that I try a comparison. The commercial version of both are quite expensive, so if I do it homemade, well, let's check out if it worth. The inverted caramel is something like brewer's inverted sugar. Cane sugar, acid, heat, pyrolysis. Same idea.

Anyway, sorry for interrupt your post, I just wanted to share something related to it.

 

[scomet]

Good thread peebee but; In my brewing world brewers invert and candy syrup are as different as goldfish to elephants. BI is made using the maillard reaction and candy syrup by the caramelisation process and never the twain should meet.
Brewers Invert doesn't have much taste, in fact it has a dry funny sort of taste not sweet and defiantly not candy / toffee.
I have made lots of BI with success and many failures from getting the sugar syrup too hot! mainly when I’m shooting for a BI# 3 or 4., nows days I just make BI# 1 & 2 and get colour in my beers using midnight wheat, so long as the sugar has inverted bingo!!
Inverted sugar shouldn’t have any taste thats one of the reasons confectioners use it. I believe most modern Invert is manufactured using a chemical process I have seen it for sale in 25Kg pails, for me cooking up a batch at home is just another fun part of learning how to brew…

ps A-R Maillard is soooo slow to get to #1 can take an hour and a half cos you cant go over 110c...

 

[peebee]

Good thread peebee but; In my brewing world brewers invert and candy syrup are as different as goldfish to elephants. BI is made using the maillard reaction and candy syrup by the caramelisation process and never the twain should meet.
Brewers Invert doesn't have much taste, in fact it has a dry funny sort of taste not sweet and defiantly not candy / toffee. ...

Thank you! But you are putting someone else's words in my mouth! I have never said Invert and Candy Syrup is the same! On the contrary:

... Now we haven't been discussing "Belgium syrup" in this thread. it's not the same. We've been discussing brewer's invert sugar as made in the UK.

(Belgium syrup = Candi <sic> syrup, etc.). Brewer's Invert uses Maillard reactions and caramelisation for taste and colour. And you are okay to go a little warmer than 110C (say 115C) as 110 is right on the edge of fructose caramelisation temperature which might be why your Invert Sugar colouring is taking so long? Might need the pH of the inverted syrup neutralising first to speed things up?

Sucrose (and glucose) syrup needs 160C to caramelise. Maillard reactions do not favour acid environments.

I was contemplating using colourant to tweak the final colours, because unless you have glass EBC samples (and good eyesight) getting the colour "right" during cooking the syrup is a bit unlikely. But I was considering Brewer's Caramel not grains. And creating No.4 entirely by colouring No.3 with Brewer's Caramel?



What I'm stuck on at the moment (and why I've gone quiet here!) is the conversion of "brewer's degrees per litre per kg" and ("home-brew"?) "SG potential extract". It's relevant to Invert Sugar; honest! I think it will involve "ppg" (or "ppppg" seems to be favoured at times) and probably American to Metric weight/volume conversions (yeuch)?

 

[Galena]

Would this be any use?
HERE

 

[peebee]

Would this be any use?
HERE

Nope! Its base was probably refined sugar (no useful "raw sugar" flavour, or precursors for other flavour and colour processes) and it's only undergone the "inversion" process, not what really matters to brewers (the colouring and flavouring enhancements for beer). The "inversion" process creates fructose and glucose. This fructose is the essential step to what makes Invert Sugar so invaluable. But once the colours and flavour compounds have been created the fructose is just food for the yeast (as is white sugar at a fraction of the price and effort).

It's why I was earlier ranting at the Becker's advert; mentioning the fructose and glucose as if it's important is just pandering to the misinformed instead of educating them as to what really matters.

Crikey, I'm beginning to sound like ...

 

[scomet]

Would this be any use?

Yes but not at that price! The other stuff peebee posted was a rip off too. I will post a link to the cheaper one when I find it....
Cheers

 

[scomet]

Invert Sugar also gains flavours and colour from the heat causing caramelisation and Maillard reactions.

I'll just leave this here ;-}
I think we are confusing each other with what we are trying to say :-}
I really like these minutes from the Institute of Brewing 1902, Have a read of the names of the Officers and Committee I think you'll recognise a few, it then goes on to show BI was all about MONEY.

Cheers Guys great thread and posts..

 

[Galena]

Yes but not at that price!

Well it's £2 and it's available in the UK whereas Peebees was not I think (okay not a lot of it for £2 but hey ho)
So one says it is useful, the other says it isn't? I think we need some input on this from both sides

 

[scomet]

Well it's £2 and it's available in the UK

Dont forget I am originally from Yorkshire! thats A$22/kg! I make 19Ltr of Landlady for that price. If you're just using it occasionally I think it would work really well in your brew and 180g is a good size to see if you like it... Cheers

 

[Hanglow]

You'd be as well just using plain table sugar instead of that syrup. A basic guide for flavour contribution of any ingredient, sugar especially, is the colour of it.

 

[peebee]

Yes but not at that price!

Well it's £2 and it's available in the UK whereas Peebees was not I think (okay not a lot of it for £2 but hey ho)
So one says it is useful, the other says it isn't? I think we need some input on this from both sides

You probably meant "need some input on this from <to provide support for> both sides"? But you said "from" so that's what you get! And from this side: I think I was quite thorough in my previous reply, can't think what I'd add. And from the "other side": "Yes, but ...", which I think is saying there is no "other side"!

Ooo, and @Hanglow has chipped in ...

Surely the £2 option doesn't sound too good now? But good try! I'm still working at the practicalities of making the stuff having realised its not such a fearsome process after all. In fact it's not fearsome at all. Ask @Hanglow about his oven trick. I'm trying to figure if I can get this "Instantpot" to churn it out (popular tools, but pricy to have for just Invert Syrup - and I don't know if they will do the job yet, there's no obvious way).

I'm mainly offline for a week, but bear with me.

 

[chthon]

I always make it on the kitchen stove, using my electronic brewing thermometer. But I don't tend to let it colour much (yet).

One tip, first dissolve al your sugar in the amount of water that you need, at around 80° to 90° C, before starting the inversion process. Some guidelines say that you can get crystallisation at the sides of the pot. You can minimize this risk to a real minimum by taking care of this first.

I add my acid only after this is done. You will evaporate a whole lot of water, because your temperature will rise to above 100° C. At around 108° the temperature will stabilise a bit, after that you can let it rise to 114° C. That's the temperature I mostly work around.

 

[scomet]

You will evaporate a whole lot of water

This is where it gets tricky! As the water boils off the thermal mass* of the syrup picks up the heat really quickly so you have to constantly keep lowering the stove temperature or it will caramelise. For this reason I dont like the set and forget oven method. Hot sugar syrup is nasty S* its no place for pets or children! Now I only make #1 & 2 its a lot safer. *not sure if mass is the correct term. BI is a 1000% better than using white sugar in brewing. Cheers...