Brewing one kit upon another

[supergaijin]

Hi all. I have been brewing kits for years but only recently started brewing a kit straight after bottling without washing out the brew bucket. Sometimes on the same evening or the next day. The most I've done before washing out the bucket is 3.

Starting with a clean bucket, I leave the brew upstairs where it gets to around 21-22 degrees. Any higher and I take it downstairs as I dislike esters in my beer. Activity in the bubbler usually starts the next evening and I leave it to do its thing for a fortnight.

I made the occasional Ginger Beer on the dregs without issue and wondered what would happen if I just threw another beer kit straight upon the dregs. To be completely honest, laziness may have had something to do with it. After 3 rotations I clean it all out. I've done lager kits on lagers, and stouts on larger dreds with no ill effect so far. In total I've made about 15 or 20 kits like this. Brands used were Mangrove Jacks and Brewferm.

That said, activity kicks off within 6hrs and it ferments very quickly upstairs and even downstairs the yeast chews through the sugar within the week even at 16 degrees. So temperature control seems fairly critical and I wouldn't try this in summer with ambient temps of 24. I have a isothermic bag for brewing in summer and rotate a frozen bottle in it while which means a ambient temp of 18 or so but I wouldn't chance a "double barrel beer kit" as I have been known to forget to rotate the bottles before.

I've noticed more esters in the second brew and for me it borders on too much in the third. My understanding of ester creation was primarily due to temp. The temp for brews 1, 2 and 3 remain constant or even reduced on brew 2/3 however fermentation is dramatic on #2 and ferocious on #3 and the ester seems to correspond. Can anyone tell me why?

Cheers, Harv

 

[The Biochemist]

Just to be clear, you’re setting up your new fermentation directly on the settled yeast from the previous brew?

 

[White Rose Al]

A very interesting read, can't say it is something I have ever thought about

 

[supergaijin]

Just to be clear, you’re setting up your new fermentation directly on the settled yeast from the previous brew?

Yes.

A very interesting read, can't say it is something I have ever thought about

I have less and less weekend time to bottle and wash so it was brought about through that. Having brewed ginger beer this way before, I thought I'd give it a nudge with beer. Besides the rapid fermentation (advantageous in winter) there hasn't been any bad surprises so far.

 

[Donegal john]

The off flavours you talk about will most likely be from a massive over pitch of yeast especially by the 3rd brew.
Do you really save a lot of time by not rinsing out the bucket and starting fresh each time ?

 

[Dutto]

…… there hasn't been any bad surprises so far.

It normally only takes a single brew and throwing 23 litres of vinegar down the drain before, suddenly, sanitising starts to be a good idea again!

A spoiled brew is like getting a girlfriend pregnant; you only need to do it once to learn a valuable lesson.

 

[Clint]

When I used to do kits I did a few brews straight on top of a previous and I also tried using a cup of yeast tipped into a new brew. Both worked fine.

 

[An Ankoù]

There's a hell of lot of yeast in there, which is increasing with each brew. Some of that yeast is going to be 6 wees old or more by the time you get to the end of the third brew. Not all the yeast is live and those dead cells are going to start rotting down. True, the products of autolysis will feed the live yeast, but there's just too much of it. It would be far better to make each kit in a fresh bucket and inoculate it with just a small part of the previous yeast cake.

 

[supergaijin]

Nice one. Thanks all.

 

[The Biochemist]

Agreed with all of the above. Esters are generally caused by yeast stress: temperature is a big factor, but in your case my money would be on nutrient deficiency. The massive amount of yeast in there by your third brew are all going to be trying to actively grow as well as just chewing through the sugars, and the nutrients present in the wort just won’t be enough.

You could counter this by throwing in a boat-load of nutrient, but as @Donegal john says, probably easier just to rinse and sanitise each time!

 

[Dutto]

Less than a week back in the fold and I can already see a new thing that I’m supposed to worry about!

This time it’s apparently “Esters” which, according to Brittanica is defined as:

“Ester, any of a class of organic compounds that react with water to produce alcohols and organic or inorganic acids. Esters derived from carboxylic acids are the most common. The term ester was introduced in the first half of the 19th century by German chemist Leopold Gmelin.”

The second I read the word “chemist” and not “brewer” I relaxed, on the basis that Brewers hadn’t even heard of the stuff for hundreds of years! I’ve therefore decided to carry on with sanitising everything and going with the “2+2+2” system that has stood me in such good stead over the years!

 

[Donegal john]

Less than a week back in the fold and I can already see a new thing that I’m supposed to worry about!

This time it’s apparently “Esters” which, according to Brittanica is defined as:

“Ester, any of a class of organic compounds that react with water to produce alcohols and organic or inorganic acids. Esters derived from carboxylic acids are the most common. The term ester was introduced in the first half of the 19th century by German chemist Leopold Gmelin.”

The second I read the word “chemist” and not “brewer” I relaxed, on the basis that Brewers hadn’t even heard of the stuff for hundreds of years! I’ve therefore decided to carry on with sanitising everything and going with the “2+2+2” system that has stood me in such good stead over the years!

Esters are a good thing though in certain types of beers like Belgians. So they are not always to be feared.

 

[Nicks90]

Nice one. Thanks all.

If you really want to speed up fermentation without the risk of impacting your second and third brew, after bottling brew 1 do the following
Bottle your beer as normal. But set aside 2 500ml bottles with no sugar in them
Swirl (gently) the trub with those last bits of beer you couldn't bottle. Just a gentle swirl, as all the good live yeast is on the top of the trub. Then pour this off in to the 2 sanitised bottles. Put one in the fridge for brew 3 and the other one pour straight in to brew 2 after you have cleaned your FV. The yeast in the fridge will actually keep for up to 3 months in my experience, as its oxygen free, under a layer of low pH beer and in a sanitary bottle.

I do this with nearly all my brews (all grain- but principle is exactly the same), which means one sachet of yeast can last 3 or 4 brews over a several month period. So the fridge will have a saison, ale and ipa yeast stored depending on what I fancy next.